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Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5

05-06-2017 , 09:28 PM
Been at table for about 2 hours and have a decent image, players probably think I'm overly tight. I have only shown down one hand, where I GII pre with AA vs the BB who didn't show on a runout of QJ984. Last two hands I've opened I've had to check fold as I didn't connect in anyway.

Hero is UTG+2 with AJ

UTG limps, Hero raises to 30, Villain in MP calls, BB calls, and UTG calls. Effective stacks are about 500.

I was really trying to isolate the BB here as he has been calling everything and is a total station. Two hands ago I 3 bet his 30 open to 100 and he called with AJo. The limper has been limp folding a lot and there has been just about no 3 betting going on so not really worried about getting 3 bet light. Villain is a decent reg I assume. I haven't seen him get too out of line but he is definitely capable of making some plays.

Flop ($115) A73
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, Villain bets 65. Folds to hero, hero calls.

Is this a spot where I should just cbet the flop? I tend to check back a lot of these dry flops thinking I can't get called by too much worse but now I have no idea where I'm at.

Turn ($245) Q
Hero checks, Villain bets 135. Hero?

I don't really see any bluffs villain can have here and as played I think it clearly looks like I have an Ace. Not sure what I could hope for on the river and feel like villain is shoving almost all rivers. Could villain just be bluffing with complete air trying to get me off a weak ace? I think he checks back any ace I beat on the turn. Any advice is welcomed here as I am not sure if this is standard and I played it fundamentally sound or if there is a big leak that I need to change. Thank you in advance.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-06-2017 , 09:36 PM
Reads? Stack sizes? Your image?

As played Bet/fold flop $75 vs a standard villain. They won't raise with worse in this spot with other players behind. Check calling is really bad and you gain 0 info and pretty much level yourself into losing $$$ if you're beat. I would only check this flop vs a major fish who goes absolutely nuts when every one shows weakness.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-06-2017 , 10:23 PM
Had no good reads on villain. He seemed like a decent player and never got out of line. White male in mid 40s. Both stacks about 500. I had a decent image, only hand I showed down was AA and have only played about 6 hands the last 2 hours.

Ya I agree check/calling is bad. The major fish was the guy in the BB who would not fold a pair no matter what. Wanted to keep him in to catch a draw or pair on the turn and bet bet against him. I probably shouldn't of focused so much on him when two other players are in hand.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-06-2017 , 10:44 PM
AP, call turn, probably chk/fold river.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-07-2017 , 03:12 AM
The only reason to check this flop is against thinking players so that they know you arent always weak when you check. Against avg lineup of live droolers just cbet and get value from all worse pairs.

As played I just call him down.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-07-2017 , 05:09 AM
I think you've played it well so far. If we bet flop and villain calls, do we have any idea where we are? No. Our hand plays a lot better against a range of pairs, sets, and bluffs, than it does against pairs and sets. To get this range, we have to check the flop.

We don't really want to get 3 streets here anyway imo.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-07-2017 , 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
I think you've played it well so far. If we bet flop and villain calls, do we have any idea where we are? No. Our hand plays a lot better against a range of pairs, sets, and bluffs, than it does against pairs and sets. To get this range, we have to check the flop.

We don't really want to get 3 streets here anyway imo.
you can end up getting bluffed off the best hand, or he villain can turn equity or the best hand. Sure he can do that if he calls too, but we set our own price. Sometimes it's fine to check with top pair, but I don't think this is a spot where we want to. It's multi way and we need to start thining the field. Imagine all 3 villains have pocket pairs or mid pairs - if it checks through that is 6-8 outs we need to fade and we are going in blind.

Luckily someone bet for us - but we still don't even know if we have the best hand. If we get a bad river or turn and he bombs it, we are screwed, and can't rep anything with out making it look weird.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-07-2017 , 12:05 PM
The smaller the SPR and the larger the number of villains in the hand, the more you want to play things straight forward. Just bet out. If nobody has an ace, no card on the turn is going to make anyone decide to put money in the pot with a worse hand than yours. If they have an ace, they're calling on the flop no matter what.

As played, the pot will be $515 and you'll have $270 left if you call. That's an easy jam on the river for the villain. Are you going to fold getting nearly 3:1? If yes, then you're better off folding the turn. If no, then you just call it down.

The only real tell we have here is that the villain keep his % of the pot bet essentially the same on the turn. Many players subconsciously reduce the % of the pot bet on the turn when they have some doubt about their hand. This villain doesn't have much doubt. While you beat more combos of Ax than you lose to, there aren't many that are going to be confident about their chances that you beat. The other factor is that you've already made a mistake in the hand. When I've already made mistake, my reaction is to figure that my judgement is off and it is time to get out of the hand. With these two factors, I'd just fold on the turn and move on.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-07-2017 , 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
When I've already made mistake, my reaction is to figure that my judgement is off and it is time to get out of the hand.
I'm going to try and keep this one in mind.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-07-2017 , 07:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
I think you've played it well so far. If we bet flop and villain calls, do we have any idea where we are?
Yes, we can usually assume someone is calling with a worse pair.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-07-2017 , 07:48 PM
What does Villain put you on when you raise pre from EP and then check-call an A73r flop?

You're really narrowing down your range by having both a cbet and check-calling range on this dry of a board. You should either (cbet or check-fold) or (check-raise or check-fold) or (check/call or check/fold).

Basically you should do with AJ whatever you would do with AK.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-08-2017 , 08:30 AM
The pre-flop raise is good for value and to isolate. However once 4 callers enter the pot, isolation has obviously not worked.

Plan B - Once we flop TP the decision is whether we play for stacks or not, given the small SPR. Multi-way I’d opt not to, but ofc opponent dependent. I’d rather take a B/F line on the flop for that reason, likely check-evaluating turn.

As played - You have a tight image, C/F flop after opening the last two. Now you C/C a flop that nicely hit your PFR raising range and are met with resistance. Most opponents will not continue w/AT- here. Behind AK/AQ/A7s/77/33.

Folding is perfectly fine imo.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-08-2017 , 11:53 PM
Bet flop, barrel turn, and probably x/f river.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-09-2017 , 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minatorr
Bet flop, barrel turn, and probably x/f river.
+1
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-09-2017 , 11:04 AM
You really can't represent anything else but an Ax hand by check/calling this flop. Plus this isn't a board where you can expect to get raised, so I'd bet pretty much all my range here.

You should be check/calling some of the time with TPGK when your opponents are likely to have holdings that will bet when checked to/raise your cbet.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-09-2017 , 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
I think you've played it well so far. If we bet flop and villain calls, do we have any idea where we are? No. Our hand plays a lot better against a range of pairs, sets, and bluffs, than it does against pairs and sets. To get this range, we have to check the flop.

We don't really want to get 3 streets here anyway imo.
Do you ever bet the flop dude? This is two threads in a row (including the 99 one) where you are advocating some wonky check line so we can get value from weaker/bluff ranges.

You are overthinking it. We likely have the best hand and we are unlikely to improve. Bet for value and let villains make calling mistakes. We don't have to mash the pot button we can size appropriately around $50-60 to thin the field and get called by worse.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-09-2017 , 05:16 PM
bet/fold flop and check/fold turn

AP fold turn.
Getting into trouble by playing too passively? 2/5 Quote
05-10-2017 , 01:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Do you ever bet the flop dude? This is two threads in a row (including the 99 one) where you are advocating some wonky check line so we can get value from weaker/bluff ranges.

You are overthinking it. We likely have the best hand and we are unlikely to improve. Bet for value and let villains make calling mistakes. We don't have to mash the pot button we can size appropriately around $50-60 to thin the field and get called by worse.
I was thinking about this one and I think you're right about this one - betting this flop is better cause its so multiway. Need to thin the field. 3 handed I still check tho lol.

Ya, I was actually thinking the opposite about you lol. You seem to always take the more aggressive line in lots of different situations, from what I've seen at least.
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