I'm hardly breaking any new ground here; this concept is straight out of PNLHE.

GpleaseaddressfurthercomplaintstoMiller/Flynn/Mehta,imoG

You can do whatever you want.

Meanwhile OP just lost a $550 stack (good luck winning long term doing that very often) *and* actually got his money in good (according to someone earlier who did the EV calc, I'll trust it) when everyone else here (including me) made the massive mistake of folding (the -EV of which postflop pales in comparison to any "value" we got preflop).

GkeepsforgettingtocashmyvaluechequesG

Dude you ve misapplied that concept for years upon years.

SPR is a useful rule of thumb for novice players so that they ll know at what stack depths is good to stack of with what kind of hands.

What you have done instead is use the SPR concept to try achieving the dumb goal of stop thinking postflop and/or putting people on ranges so you can make the best decision possible. You just want to play risk-free, mindless poker in which you just shovel money and people pay you off. That's the issue and you stubbornly refuse to accept that no, you need to put some thought into it and experience situations in which there's going to be stress involved.

There's also the implicit thinking that it's not a good idea to bloat the pot with overpairs when SPRs are deep or when pots are mulitway. What you are missing is that just because you don't get to stack your opponents, overpairs can be very profitable as two street hands or even 3 street hands against some people who are calling stations. All the same, just because you don't win the pot 70-80% of the time HU, it's more profitable if you win it 50% of the time when it's 3 way or 4 way. You just need to be able to make reads, folds, thin value bets and not get tilted when AA doesn't win.

Like from 2007? Good to know we are with the times. Can you point me towards the "limp aces closing the action in the BB" section?

Just because the OP misplayed the hand, it doesn't mean that you advice is the correct one.

The correct advice is this.

1. Pre have a rule on your raise that takes into account effective stack depth, your position and limpers. Raise all of your range based on that rule.

2. Preflop, take the most EV+ line that takes into account your opponents' ranges.

3. Based on the above, I will raise to 30-33 pre. I will c-bet. Against vast majority of opponents I will fold vs this action. But if my read is that V2 are droolers that 4bet a gutshot on the flop, then I will try adjusting accordingly. That's the most interesting question btw. If calling/shoving is EV+ even if we assume that V2 is 4betting going all the way with a gutshot just like this. Also, does he play his value the same way? Some people prefer trapping with their top set. These are interesting questions. Not whether SPR is low or deep and what I should do according to them!

Overtly, you make it sound so simple (gee, all I have to do is account for my 3 opponents ranges and their 3 different stack sizes and put them into the equity mixer, and boom, my answer, so easy!). The problem is that it ain't going to be simple in these small SPR pots (4 against the medium stack and 6.5 against the big stack) because thanks to preflop you've handcuffed yourself to making commitment decisions in as little as one street (which is fine if you're committed preflop, such as against the small $80 stack, but no so much if you haven't against the other stacks).

But, if you're expert and can make heads or tails of hands based on one street of action, then you'll have no problems in these spots. This one turned out *real* simple given the action and yet we all still made a mistake (which, admittedly, will happen). Most spots will not be so simple. I'm not that good, and I doubt OP is either.

GeachtotheirownG

yeah, I agree with that.
All this preflop nonsense did was derailing a in my opinion pretty interesting postflop spot.

I think pre is...

I like your cbet, and I also like your sizing. Reads on V2 would now help, has she been losing her stack by mostly getting coolered, overplaying hands, calling off? is she visibly on tilt, stuff like that.

Hand histories from V3 would help as well as preflop reads on if he generally limps or openraises with small pairs? Ofc these things are hard to know.
If I haven´t seen him slowplaying before, and if I have seen him getting sticky with not so decent hands before which he clearly seems to be the guy, I would not fold.

Question is whether it is better to call and basically gii on most turns unless action totally explodes or the nutworst card like a 6 falls or just shove it in rn.

I think you played it fine overall, but ofc I know the results now, and this is an interesting spot.

PS I really feel sorry for OP who made an excellent thread with 24 posts to his account so far and got all this ****storm

That fact that OP's spot is not trivial does not validate the multiple pieces of complete and utter poker horse**** you've dumped itt. What poaster credentials would it take to convince you that, just maybe, you should seriously contemplate their advice?

Pre: is obviously just a sizing issue. I agree that larger may well have been better. Anything but a raise from the blinds with AA is silliness. Also, I raise a lot more than AA/KK from the blinds and my hand should be far from 'face up'. Though if everyone gives me credit for AA/KK every time I raise, I'm ok with that

Flop: My c-bet was a little small purposefully to give myself an easier out if things got crazy. Didn't work out that way.

Here are a couple thoughts on the villains. V1 had punted both stacks in the last hour on crazy fishy aggressive play. She was visibly frustrated and tilted. V2 was playing hard against anything V1 had and had been running hot, and was holding tight to any draws till the river.

My analysis included a lot more pp's in both villains range than has been discussed, so perhaps I am overcounting those. I shoved pretty much because this is a clear fold/shove situation. I gain no info by calling and will be almost certainly faced with an all in call on the turn. I know that I had some equity in the side pot and was thinking that I would likely get called by V1 who was quite possibly ahead, but that would almost guarantee that V2 would call and give me a large amount of equity in the side pot.

My shove would never have happened had V2 not had such a large stack.

Anyway, just rambling thoughts. Definitely not the way I play most of those situations.

You've put it very nicely. I size my premium+ hands the following way pre:

round_up_to_5( pot_size * 2 ). In this case, there's $16 in the pot when it gets to OP, making our bet $32, rounded up to $35.

This is just a baseline, obviously I will adjust it based on the table. Is $35 here a sizing tell? IDK.

EDIT: This post was supposed to be discarded, posted in error.

Not much for people to pick up on if you consistently bet the same amount. If you are sizing down your opens with hands lower in your range, that can be a tell. It's a common suggestion not to vary your bet size because of this.

I generally go 3x plus 1x per limper when I'm in position, and go 4x plus 1x per limper when out of position. So here with four limpers in the hand and my big blind, I would raise 9x standard, round it up to 30 for a 10x raise.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

So i will throw out there that no one is 100% wrong in how they have suggested this be played. It is a difference of style mostly...some players play a much more high variance game where they are willing to push every equity edge they perceive to have in every spot. Others (like me), are willing to sacrifice what we consider to be thin EV spots to play a lower variance game. Both strategies can be and are successful in LSNLH and the best players at these levels are comfortable playing either depending on the situation (something I would love to be better at doing).

Overall, i found this hand/thread to be a great example that prompted a lot of differing views. That is the best kind of thread IMO as all of us benefit from examining hands in ways that our normal tendencies/biases prevent us dfrom doing.

So thanks from me to OP for the hand and for all the back and forth.

lol this thread is a total mess

Question for those who see the cards on their back facing the flop action: knowing what everyone has, are you able to accurately do the appropriate EV calc in real-time at the table to decide whether you have an +EV spot? I'll admit it: if I saw these cards flipped up, I'd do my best to come up with one in the short time I have under the pressure of the situation, but I doubt I'd come up with the right answer given the differing stack sizes. I would have folded seeing these cards (and I'll trust someone's math earlier in the thread to show what a big mistake that would have been).

And that's with the card on their backs. I'm supposed to do better when they're not and I'm guesstimating at multiple ranges and what they would vs wouldn't do with various parts of it?

Obviously everyone else is a math wizard super computer and will have no problem computing the EV in these spots, and so in that case, you should welcome these spots and crush. Me, I'm not so good with the math in real time in these spots (or other spots that will constantly be created with this raise size preflop), so I do something different.

GyourpreflopdecisiondependsonyourpostflopskillG

I did it like this, without an equity calculator:

pot 1 320 we have 2 outs for $13 equity

pot 2 810 we have 5 outs for $162 equity

pot 3 400 we have 84% for $344 equity

so we risk 550 with $519 of equity so we lose $31.

that's assuming the guy with the gut shot calls, the times he folds were waaay in the negative.

im not sure how any of y'all are getting positive equity here can you tell me what program you're using so I can try it myself?

ahh I see I used the 1 out = 2% equity rule which is underestimating because there aren't 50 cards left there are 41 where 1 out equals almost 2.5% equity. still when we shove 470 more on top we should expect the hands we beat to fold making this huge negative ev play. it's a miracle gut shot guy calls

Preflop is an obvious raise to $25+. I probably make it something like $31 and don't care if they call, fold, or raise

Flop can be either x/evaluate, or bet/fold to further action, unless it's like a min raise and heads up or something

Not sure why people are debating pf raise. You also should be raising this spot with TT+, and stuff like AJs, AQs and AKs, and maybe even more marginal stuff like 99, ATs, KQs

I would be raising pre as wide as 88+, ATo+, KTo+, QJo in this spot. Potentially even wider if I have a good image and am running over the table.

Then nits will stare you down knowing you don’t have much but will ultimately fold like they always do.

is raising QJo/KTo with 4 callers in front profitable?

seems like we are going to be playing a super deep pot wether we hit or miss and get put in some really uncomfy situations.

is raising with those hands the optimal play here?