It seems that where I play 1/2, the typical raise sizing keeps going up and up. Where 8+$2 per limper used to be about right to get things heads up or 3 way, now it's more like $12 or even $15+$2/limper. Sometimes more. So it's creating a lot of situations where you get 3 handed in a $50-$75 pot with a hand like AQ and unless the game is deep a SPR of about 3-5. I don't really like that situation even if we hit an A on the flop.

I'm thinking adjustments we can make are--

1. None. Just play bigger pots and be prepared to take TPTK type hands further than usual as well as cbet large when it appears proper.

2. Raise a lesser amount with more players and just look to take advantage of better starting hands and position to extract max value when we bink 2P or better and play cautious if we don't.

3. Play tighter and come in with premiums only for large raises.

4. Vary raises. It's something I haven't done in a long time, but if the players are not perceptive, come in smaller with good multiway hands like 89s-QJs and more with hands like 99+, AQ+.

5. Learn to play beyond pre-flop and flop.

Beyond the snark, this is not really even true. If we find ourself with AQ and the flop comes A75r and there are three players and the pot is $70 and the SPR is 4 and we bet out $50 when checked to and get one caller the pot is now $170 with about $200 behind. The hand sort of plays itself at that point. There is no play better. It is what it is. That's the point of the thread.

Basicly what RP said.

But the longer answer is:
It depends on what range of hands they are playing, and how they act post flop.

Are they calling with atc for the larger sizing, or are they narrowing their calling range?

Are they sticky with underpairs and second/third pair?

Can you double barrel them off their weaker hands?

This will help you develop a starting plan for how to approach theze types of situations.

Of course it is true.

SPR is sort of a "poker for dummies" concept used to simplify a set of underlying variables.

When most people reach a point that SPR is no longer the best indicator to play a hand, they begin to dig deeper to understand those underlying variables.

Your 4 options are merely trying to manipulate concept of SPR.

My 5th option is telling you that it is time to move forward.

What if the caller is an 90 years old dude that open folded AQ on AJ5 board earlier?

To answer, its really only a problem when the answer to your question is they are calling loose and sticky which I find to frequently be the case. Maybe it's a leak, but unless it's deep, or I have a specific read, I'm not double-barreling with air too often if ever.

If we don't have a read on how he plays AJ on an AJ5 board, we check back the turn and if checked to on the river we check back unimproved and value bet if we improve.

When I say the hand plays itself, Im not saying it's always one way, but our options become very limited going forward. There's not a lot of different things we can do turn/river when the hand sets up this way.

Just move to 2/5.

Folks open to the same amount, $15-30, and stacks are $500+ instead of $200.


/thread

Or, learn to l/r and 3b lite pre.

So your opponents are making mistakes, and your decisions are easy. What's the problem?

It sounds like the changing dynamics are making you uncomfortable rather than curious. Players with great discipline know that if the game is good they will find the best way to beat the game. They also know that if you're under rolled and playing a "bigger" game like this, it may not be the best game for you to be playing.

My first suggestion would be to find a different table and the second one would be to take a step back and ask yourself if you're playing with money or chips. Not literally- when it comes to your decision-making, are you considering the money involved, or are you playing poker?

If you really want a solution to the changing dynamics, realize that the blinds are not going up but the PF raise sizes are, and ranges don't seem to be changing. So it appears that your game is effectively much shallower. Play accordingly. Tighten your preflop hand selection and don't fold as much postflop. The rest is up to your own observational skills at the table.

One method I had a lot of success at 1/2 with is to vary range and bet sizing by position. In EP play a very tight range and raise enough to punish limpers. Try to set your bet sizing so you can stack off with TP+ in multiway pots. As you go around the table open your range and reduce your bet sizing.

If your coming in behind a bunch of limpers raise big with strong hands. Don't try to isolate with marginal hands. If the table is passive limp behind with hands that can flop well and try to see a lot of cheap flops. As the table gets more aggressive, cut down your limping range and fold more. If the table is really aggressive limp rarely and limp/raise with some big hands. With the AJo type hands that are not strong enough to raise or good for limping, just chuck them if the situation isn't good for squeezing.

Maybe you should bet less than 100% of the time on the flop in this scenario.

EDIT: Also, consider limping more preflop.

So much snark in this thread. Anyways, so many more questions need to be answered. What are opponents calling ranges, how far ahead is your range, how do your opponent play post flop?


You said there loose and sticky, I would look to bet less preflop with a wide range and just value them to death. And just bet bigger pre with better hands if there not adjustings. As far as AQ goes that would depend on how wide there calling, but it's probably going to be a high variance +ev spot so roll dependent on how much you want to betting pre.


Your game sounds soft.

Donkatruck, I run into the same problems and I've recently changed my strat after reading some posts on 2p2 and HOC II. It's basically what everyone's been saying. I don't raise even more because I don't want to really bloat the pot if I'm getting called anyways. I raise standard $12-15 and rely on my position and better starting hand. If I hit tpgk, I value bet but dump it if I get played back at. Harrington and others have said that a major leak of players at this level is that they over value top pair. Since I started doing this my win rate has went up.

I agree with this.

RP, you are as your name suggests, but you are also pretty spot on a significant portion of the time.

V's will often be playing with money and not chips, which opens them to up to exploitation. Some of these will happen automatically if you're considering only the chips. For example, they'll bet too small with their good hands, offering you attractive odds to draw. You don't need to do anything special to take advantage of that.

Other mistakes may require specific actions to exploit them. For example, you may be able to bet smaller (in chips) and still get people to fold their hands because the money is too big, saving yourself some chips when they do have a big hand or opening up additional bluffing opportunities. You may be able to find a fold when the chips suggest a call since you know V's range is much stronger because he's considering the money.

OTOH, you may have the occasional V that has the opposite problem. They call with their draws because they think they "should" and don't realize they're no longer getting the right direct + implied odds.

Once you figure out how an opponent is playing incorrectly in such a game, the appropriate exploit shouldn't be difficult to identify.

As an aside, I find SPR a useful tool for planning hands. But as with any tool, it has to be applied thoughtfully. I have a hammer in my home repair toolbox. But I don't view every repair job as an opportunity to hit something with it.

I'm assuming we have traditionally been opening a wide range in LP and relying on position and initiative to take down a fair number of pots. If the game will not allow you do do that any longer then RP is actually correct. It's kind of like when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Even if we only open a tight range we are going to experience a lot of variance if our strat is one of playing low SPR multiway flops. So we want to be in those situations with hands that figure to have the best of it much of the time.

The rest of the time we should be managing the pot size pre to give us room to work postflop. If we aren't going to have the greatest equity against their collective range and we can't ISO and they are going to be sticky with any piece, we need to ask what are we trying to accomplish with a raise. Play around with equilab or flopzilla. Load up these guys calling ranges and look at the equity of your traditional opening ranges from various position.

Your adjustments all are sensible.

#1 - yes with the top of your range.
#2 - yes a lot of the time. We want to play 4 or 5 streets.
#3 - it's an option but a boring one.
#4 - yes against bad players you will not be exploited for varying your raise size.

If you aren't already, Seat select to get tight players on your left.

1. That will give you more effective buttons which by far will give you the greatest number of opportunities.
2. The times you do raise and hope to get a reasonable number of callers it helps if the first to act isn't a total station that will always hitch up the call train.

And if these guys limp call range is wide identify other wide openers and look for occasional spots to drop the hammer with a big 3!.