1-2 @ reg card room
v is not a reg. Never played him. He's been at the table an hour. Looks solid and showed winning hand every show down. mid 40ish white guy. $400

me (around $500,)... chipping up over the last 2 hours. lots of raises and 3 bets in pos, iso the worst players and taking down on the follow through (mostly). folded a couple of tp type hands to v's aggression...

I open kk in ep for $16 (my standard raise ip has been $12/14)
V calls
3 other callers
pot around $70

flop AKQ

I lead out for $40
V raises to $100
folds round to me....

This is an easy fold right?

what exactly does this mean?

Has he been raising his draws?

Does he semibluff?

Does he trap at all or does he just blast away when he's ahead?

What is his preflop calling range in this spot? Would he call with AK, AQ, AJo. What about SCs and S1Gs (suited one gapers)..

Is he really going to raise you on this flop with a baby flush or is he going to wait till the turn???


As played, I call and reevaluate turn...

but you need to have a better handle on the above questions other than "Well, V was solid..."

I mean, what exactly does that mean? If V shows up here with something like J3 then how solid could he really be???

In any event, I'd call and reevaluate turn, if he makes a mistake on turn and gives us correct odds to draw, then draw. If he blasts us out of the pot on the turn then fold. If we bink turn, then extract max value by making a bet that a draw can call that sets up a river shove....

Surely it cannot be a fold. 60 to win 210 gives you ok implied odds on the draw to the FH. What do u think villain has?

AA unlikely
QQ possible but discount as might have 3b.
AK/AQ possible (although AK unlikely as might have 3b and you have blockers).
How many flush combos can he have, realistically? JT would he raise? J9, T9, T8, 98... maybe some more. But there are as many 2 pair hands as flushes. Maybe he can have JT offsuit as well, perhaps with one club?

Think you have to call, but it's nasty OOP. What to do on turn?

I do not think this is an 'easy fold'. What would he raise with here? Would he really raise with the nuts? Could he have low suited connectors and is fearful he could be outflushed? Maybe he has J10 and he is playing it fast in fear of getting outdrawn?

In any poker hand, unless you have the stone cold nuts, there is a chance the other guy has better. The reads given aren't really strong enough for me to say without a doubt that this a fold. As explained, I call and evaluate turn.

This means IDK...

Means I haven't seen him do anything dumb/spewy in the short time he's been at the table

The point if this post is that I don't... I wanted feedback on how to proceed given the very little info I had

I'm never folding the flop.
Always calling the flop to see what the turn brings, and to see what he does.
We're getting 3.5:1 to boat up here. Also, if we think that QQ is in his range here, then we certainly can't really be folding.

On most turn cards that are not a club or J or T I'm not folding to another bet either.

Way too many combos of hands like AxJc, AxTc,, AK, AQ, KQ, AQ, that we are ahead of, plus hands that we have good equity to draw again to get ahead of, plus our immediate pot odds, plus our IO if we hit a bigger hand.

Call.

How long have you been playing with him up to this point?

not trying to pick on you, but this is an area in which I feel I am head and shoulders above my peers...

you said

during that hour he had to play some hands.

poker is a game of incomplete information so obviously in that hour we are only going to observe a few hands from this villain...

but if we are paying attention, those few hands can give us a wealth of information.

Did V c/r a draw, did he go for a thin value bet, did he call down with middle pair on a draw board, did he fold a whiffed flush draw, did he overvalue TPGK, etc etc.

based on those hands we observed we can deduce a lot about villain and then we use that info in this hand.

My point is that if you were at the table with him for an hour, you should have more info on him...

I give an example of what I'm talking about here

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...postcount=1174

About an hour...

Point taken... I guess I wrote off the few hands he played as 'straight forward hands'. I could dissect those hands and their subtleties to gain more info.

I'm with dgi. Def call this flop raise and reevaluate the turn.

No way is this a good idea to just fold he's gonna do this with AxJ:clubs: Ax10:clubs: QQ QJ AQ AK AJ A10 so many hands we beat here

I'd def call... Getting the implied odds to hit a fh. What's he raising with? 10J and maybe low flush cards? Re-evaluate turn

Awesome! I almost posted in the New Year's Resolutions thread that I was going to read all dgiharris' posts.....all of them. It seemed like a reach goal, so I didn't post. That link has rekindled that fire. You should write a book.

I am never folding here. The price is fine to continue and try to improve. He was the first call your EP raise which IMO rules out AA since he wouldn't generally want a bunch of callers behind to muddy things up. We can consider QQ/JJ with a club or JTs.

If we are behind, all our outs are good (unless JcTc) ... we are price in ... for now ...

If we are ahead, we want to call this all day based on his draw ... needs club or needs Ax in most cases.

A club on Turn makes things more difficult, but doesn't change any of our outs to improve ... evaluate. GL

Bad beat hand! All-in!

That is gold. Pure gold. Thank you dgiharris, you just improved my bottom line.

Shove flop. I'm not folding so might as well jam. Any club, T, or J is going to kill action or scare you off. Even if he flopped it you still have 35% plus some FE if he's afraid of calling off with JT or a baby flush.

What worse hands call?

200bb deep, shoving is very spewy

call flop and evaluate turn

Thanks all... Here's why I fold
I think V puts us on qq+, ak and AQ... more likely 2 pair. We raised oop a little more than our usual raise and I think he's aware enough to have noticed this.
I think he's only raising (targeting the top of our range) with QQ, 10 j and any2 clubs. iT'S VERY standard in this game for V's to call with S1 or 2 G's, Why? IO they get cause They know we cant fold our set or 2 pair.
This being the case, the only hand we beat in his range is qq...
If we think he's a competent player we're not really getting any implied odds if we fill up either.
At my game here the V's can be kinda polarized... For me I can easily ship it Vs some V's or insta fold against others.

dgiharris... Below is very interesting and insightful. I think it will improve my game greatly.

So if you call, and the turn is a Q, and you bet out $50, is he folding?
And if he calls that, and the river is a 6, and you bet out $50, is he folding?

If the answers to these questions is yes, then we need to make him pay on bad turn cards a lot more often.

If the answer is no (and honesty, it likely is no) then you can't ever fold here.
You have very good direct odds right now and you have some nice implied odds on his stack and we should look to get paid on future streets.

On the turn it can be a bit different, we will likely have less DO and IO and a fold might make more sense.

But folding the flop just seems really criminal unless we think that we have 0 IO.

You may not win this entire stack but you will have implied odds if you know the right amount to bet where villain has to call cause it's too small to fold. For example you call and pot is now $270. Will villain fold to a $30 (insert small amount here) bet on turn and river with a straight or flush?