Very impressive fold OP and you was indeed correct. Hat off to you sir! That is a freaking amazing fold to be actually making in game, and not close your eyes and make the "cant believe my nutflush is beat" call.

Break,

He calls turn and river blanks, you do what?

I don't think that folding here is really a good play, but I'm glad that it worked out for you. As I said earlier I wouldn't love the spot, I wouldn't even like it, but I'm never folding there.

Sometimes you have to just take 1 on the chin. You cooler people and you get coolered, it doesn't affect your winrate, except when you're coolered and your opponents miss value. There are plenty of times where a player is either overvaluing a hand, or just thinks "F it, I'm not folding river, lets just get it in" when he has a king high flush.

Folding the best hand is generally a horrible result. It runs contrary to the general thought of this forum, but folding a winner when getting a decent price is much worse than calling and losing. Of course this means you don't ALWAYS call, but it is something to be aware of. For example, if you get 3:1 and call with a loser, you lose $1, but if you get 3:1 and fold a winner, you just lost $3.

People hate calling bc when you do you can expect to usually lose. They're scared of the feeling of losing a pot, they remember the losses more than the wins, etc. Usually when you're calling, you don't have to win very often to make it worth your while. The "listen here son, he always have it, I've seen it before" line of thinking is severely flawed, and sort of caps the level of skill you can achieve.

I hope you open folded that so you could show him how much of an idiot his line was.

Probably jamming and getting stacked if no board pair. Villain said after the hand that he jammed turn because he thought I'd fold to a large river bet if board paired, esp if I had a small flush. But I don't know why he'd think I'd call the turn all-in...

I did, table went nuts, villain just shook his head and laughed lol. was fun

Didn't read any of the thread. Pre is meh to bad. Flop is a very terrible raise. Turn is a snap don't nitroll the poor guy. Also it's 300bb not 600. Assuming he had it since you bothered making the thread.

Actually, I don't agree with the bolded. Combinatorically, Hero has more sets in his range than nut flushes on the turn (9 for all three cards on the flop vs. 7 if you include all remaining nut flushes [which in and of itself may not be right, so there might be even less NF's]: AK, A7 through A2), so it is a mistake to shove this turn IMO with Q8. We don't want Hero to fold for any reason as our hand is unbeatable, and shoving actually might get more of his range to fold (the sets) than call which is the real disaster IMO. The shove only gives Hero 2.56-1 to call ($4230/$1650), and he is a 3.6-1 dog to fill OTR. So against his total range, a shove can't be the best play OTT. If I hold Q8hh there, I either min-raise or flat IP.

What I simply meant to say was that in my games no one would likely play a set this fast this deep. It would be considered a gross overplay, and while that in itself obviously doesn't mean nobody would do it, it's still very hard to imagine anyone would be this bold with their sets. Most people just get too scared when they're deep; situations where stacks are going in without the (effective) nuts are extremely rare in my experience.

Mind you, you don't have to agree with me, and it could well be that my European games are vastly different from your American and Australian games, or that I'm just plain wrong altogether, but as long as there's not some weird super aggressive dynamic going on, I would be very confident in my read that hero has an A high flush here if I were villain.

In this case I would expect sets to have 3bet pre-flop, flatcalled flop, raised flop smaller, checked turn or bet turn smaller... All of this I would expect sooner than this huge flop raise and big turn bet. This would lead me to one conclusion only: hero has the A high flush. In general, people just aren't willing to commit so many BB's (eff the straddle, that means nothing, all that matters is the amount of money relative to the basic stakes they're playing!) without the nuts, let alone with a "mere" set in this particular case.

Agree, well put.

I also have most experience with game sin Europe, but have also played alot in Vegas both during WSOP and off season. My experience is exactly the same. Baring some drunk maniac or a huge whale, people just arent putting 600 BBs across the line or 3K in a 2/5 game with like a relative strong hand to the board.Vast majority start to feel emotionally attached to their big stack at this point (natural tendency), and just wait for effective nutz before they are willing to just pile in money into the pot in this fashion volunteerily.

OK well this game was 5/5/10 at The Bike and if you have watched LATB at all, what I describe is really not insane with a set in that game in general.

But I understand what you are saying.

GRUNCH.

Posting "600BB deep" when you're less than 300 straddles deep is lame.

I don't think this is an easy snap. Obviously you'd much prefer to have Ah8h or Ah7h. That said, you have to call. The reason being that you lose to exactly two combos in his preflop range (KhQh, 8h7h) and your pot odds require only 28.8% equity. Hence, even one combo of bluff or other spew justifies a call.

You may say "nobody ever does this worse," but you actually have to fully believe that word "ever." His range for bet/calling the flop is fairly large. JJJ, TTT, 999, KhQx, KxQh, baby flushes for sure, and potentially heartless KQ, 87, JT, perhaps wider. If you're looking at a 5% chance he spazzes one of these, you must call it off.

Just read the results. Well you supplied a pretty bad read pre. "Tight" players don't first-call 4x EP raises in the HJ with Q8s. The fact that he showed up with Q8s makes me lean harder to snap call, because if he can have Q8s, he can have K8s, potentially down to any suited King.

Why V shoved turn as opposed to min-raising (which keeps lower flushes in his range) and then jam river is beyond me

Wat. You're asking why he didn't minraise to 1500 leaving 900 behind?

Yes, I am. When V holds the unbreakable nuts, and Hero is betting strong into him, I see no reason for V to give Hero ANY excuse to lay his hand down. Hero is never folding a set or a high flush to a min-raise on the turn. And Hero's entire range is unlikely to fold almost any river for 900 given the price he will be getting. But when V jams turn and Hero holds a set or a high flush, EVEN IF HERO IS INCORRECT TO FOLD, V is making it far more of a possibility that he doesn't stack Hero.

You're making a lot of assumptions. In general, I would not expect the average response to be much different facing a clickback than an all-in.

I don't think the raise amount really matters after hero bets $750 into $1080. As ATC points out, leaving $900 behind isn't fooling anyone. Once you min raise you know the stacks are going in. I think ANY turn raise is spew with a made SF as evidenced by this heroic lay down. Hero already said he was jamming non paired rivers. I wonder how much of a value bet Hero can call if the board does pair? $800?

The fact that OP in this hand was able to get away from freaking flopped nutflush against the turnshove tells us all we need to know about how to play the straightflush here: we need to flat and keep his whole continuerange in there.

I don't think I agree. I am with Swoly on this one. I mean how many posts ITT talked about "well V would never shove $2400 in here without a but hand because that is a ton of $ to a player" or "bets more than 400 bb's are always so nutted" etc. You can't have it both ways where "no one is getting 600 big blondes in without a SF" AND say "stacks are going in no matter the raise size". V's play actually MADE Hero fold the Ace-high flush so it was by definition AWFUL. Add to that that Hero has shown he is comfy with putting $750 in, so why not either flat (which i would have done) so you give Hero's entire range a chance to improve on the river or click it back (repping a King high flush) and give him a chance to make a big mistake?

Correctamundo.

We have disturbingly similar views on most spots but here I disagree. Hero makes a polarizing $750 bet into $1080. I believe ANY raise, min or max set off the same alarm bells at that point. Hero had previously stated he didn't even consider the possibility he could be behind before the shove. The fact that it's $1500 vs $2400 with the same action does not convince me that the same thought process happens. MAYBE the A high still finds a call or is forced to jam but my guess is probably not. And further, Heros entire range still gets away much more easily. After you make a $4k pot with $900 behind, what rivers are you folding? If you're calling the $1500 then you probably just jam turn and not wait and see if the board pairs, but if you were going to jam turn to a raise you were going to call the AI IMO...

First of all: I think our hand is a great candidate to 3 bet pre. The only player that should have a fairly strong hand is EP and you making a big 3 bet from the SB with him having 4 people behind him to act is going to put a lot of pressure on him. You have a suited wheel Ace and you block a lot of monster holdings, so make it $200 pre and probably take it down.

Onto the flop: The check raise is fine, but if you're making this play, then when the board does not pair on the turn you can NOT seriously consider folding.

There's too many hands that you're killing here, folding is bad. Just get it in and if happens to have a straight flush, oh well.

I think we mostly agree...flatting>>>>>>>>>>>>min-raising>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ship .

Only diff really is that I think you maybe could get away with a min-raise so that a river shove won't look so large against some Hero's. Although I suppose that the pot will be $2600 if you flat and you will have $1650 left so maybe in this case it really doesn't matter.

Now that we've seen results, I have not seen anyone mention the fact that Villain could very easily have shoved the turn thinking that he would EITHER get called and win, or not have his high hand counterfeited by the K on the river. It's a pretty poor play if that was the only thing motivating it, but I have definitely seen people do this before.

Nice fold i guess. W/o the corner of eye high hand board lookyloo read seems like a tough spot to fold. You did mention this v is capable of overplaying in this spot right?