Hey all,

Game is regular 2/3 100BB cap game at my local card room. 63BB eff. I cover villain who is an old deaf regular, top of guy that will get a top pair type hand and just stack it off usually c/c. On the occasion he has gin he will pile chips in the middle, has no real regard for opp. range or possible holding. Type of guy that looks at his cards and the board and makes decision from there.

Hero KK MP, couple limpers and I raise to $17, called in 5 spots including V in sb.

(Pot $90) - Flop KT4, checks to me I cbet $30 all fold except V who calls.

(Pot $150) - Turn 6 V bets $100 leaving $40 behind, hero?

Comments on all areas of hand please. Understand sizing on flop will seem small to most. Figure some draws yes but I have all the kings and some spazzy guys in the pot hoping I look a little weak and get some spazzy action. Understand could have been bigger otf though.

Cheers Mac

raise more pre, more otf, fold turn

What sizing do you like pre? If sizing is bigger pre, do you like that sizing for all holdings? Or just premium holdings? Do you have a clearly exploitable change in your sizing dependant on your hole card strength?

Cheers Mac

I wouldn't worry too much about preflop, but the cbet size is far too small.

Turn is an obvious fold.

raise enough pre to get the pot heads up. your raise fails here because it fails to extract info from your ops on what their hand could be.. i personally usually open raise to 20 25 15 10 depending on the table. i never see people raising to 25 on this forum, which is a leak and leaves you open to not getting the pot hu.. at your table id be raising to 30 pre given the limpers and table not because of my hand

Can you address questions I asked in last reply please? Interested to have your take on those.

Cheers Mac

Pre-flop is okay.

I like betting more on the flop for two reasons:

1. You can always profitably see a river.

It's pretty easy to bet enough on the flop that even if Villain shows you a straight or flush on the turn you're getting odds to call to boat up.

2. If Villain has a straight and/or flush draw they'll call a large bet. There's very few other hands that are calling any bet.

Not so sure I follow the math. If I bet 60 otf say and V calls. Pot is now 210 with V having 110 back. If H hits turn and V pushes in I'm getting 3 to 1 but 22% dog to boat up?

Although I agree with the concept of betting more otf, the odds aren't there to call long term in that spot without any implied equity. Sure if we both 500BB deep I have some implied value but V left with just short of 40BBs.

Cheers Mac

That's right.

You've found 60 is slightly too little to bet.

Do you really think someone is folding QJ or a flush draw if you bet 75 (or even more) on the flop? If you bet 30 are they calling with pocket sevens?

The Villain's range is almost all strong draws, and air. You have blockers to top pair. Target the strong draws with your bet sizing.

One last rule. Bet larger on wet flops.

Betting more still doesn't change the fact I'm not getting the right price ott to call to boat up on river in this instance. Although I understand what youre saying about targeting some big draws, because V is so short not getting the right price to call off, being purely math orientated. On the flop certainly would be.

Cheers Mac

that's my reply.. and i usually dont open raise less than 20 at most tables

So you would open to 7x or 8x bb with 78s in mp when folded to you?

Cheers Mac

i might not even open raise 87s in mp, might even open fold, but thats just me. also other players will think its a sin. i might raise it in lp to 20 like all my other hands im raising.. if ive been raising to 10 and getting hu then id stay consistent and raise to 10.. if the table is full of droolers i might just raise to 10 to not invest so much w 8 hih

Of course it does...that's exactly what it changes. Betting more on the flop makes it an easy call (obv) if he check jams flop or open jams turn. You bet say $60 into $90 OTF and he just calls, now pot is $210 and V has $110 behind. Even if he open shoves turn, you are getting 3:1 and are about a 3:1 dog IF he in fact has a flush. Sprinkle a couple other hands in his range like smaller sets or AK, AT with Ah and it's a call.

As played, I guess it's a sigh fold..but I'm still skeptical. If he made a big flush OTT why would he come right out and bomb it?

Yep, yep, OK, gotcha. I'm nothing thinking against a range just against a flush. Yeah OK, def bigger otf.

Yeah, not sure, guess if it's a small flush you don't want another heart. Nut flush you probably wouldn't bomb that hard.

Cheers Mac

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Need to bet way more otf. At least 60. We want to set ourselves up so that if a draw comes in we'll be getting the 4:1 we need to justify a call ott. Don't worry about pushing people off of the hand, all of the worse sets are going to gii asap and even a 2/3 psb gets called by KQ a decent amount of the time.

As played were not getting correct odds to call and draw to our fh/quads. Unless we think V might do this with some sort of combo draw, this is a puke fold as played.

That's true but you made money on the bet because he called with incorrect odds. We're not trying to necessarily set it up so we can always call with correct odds when he hits. We're betting the biggest amount that he'll call because every extra dollar he calls makes us money regardless of the next card.

If he would call a shove on the flop, then bet that. If he'll call $75 but fold to $76 then bet $75 (I realize we don't often know the tipping point, but that's the theoretical best bet).

If it was like K72 rainbow I'd think about betting $30 into $90, bc it's so much harder for worse hands to call. As previous poster mentioned, on a pretty wet flop like KT4hh you can get called by all kinds of hands, so start building that pot and charging draws.

Did you mention in a previous post that villain has a flush? Bc it seems like everyone is just operating under the assumption villain has a flush every single time in this spot. Yes, as played, if villain leads $100 and shows you 89hh face up it's a fold. This could be 44, TT, AT with Ah, one combo of AK with Ah, and maybe even QJ with a heart. Yeah most of the time this is probably a flush that is not the nut flush, but villain's range is still worth bringing up.

Haven't mentioned villains holding. Wanting to get people's thoughts without knowing Vs holding.

Cheers Mac

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sigh shove

this.

you priced yourself into a fold. smile.

Never fold top set for < 100bb.

Never.

If 17 usually gets 1 or 2 callers then it's fine. Sometimes an early caller brings the whole tribe along... However... Once that happens, I'm pretty much never laying 4:1 to a 4 player field on a board with 2 broadway cards and a flush draw. They can't make a very big mistake drawing with those odds and it's going to be difficult to fold top set so we will be offering good implied odds much of the time.

Not to mention if the first guy calls with some made hand and an over caller has the draw, he is getting immediate odds.

With 4 opponents there is a much better chance someone has a strong continuing hand. We need to Maxize value right on the flop.

I'm always curious of the suit distributions. Was the K a heart? If it was a diamond it puts the Kxhh hands in play as well as the other draws.

5 ways with a low SPR We can bomb this flop and expect action a lot of the time. The 1/3 pot bet really doesn't set up the drawing hands to make much of a mistake esp if we are calling off.

As played a disciplined fold seems correct given villain description since his range should be mostly flushes.

the way I look at betting bigger in spots like this is that some villains are more inelastic and will call almost anything with their draw while others will have less draws the bigger the bet they had to call. So one range is less flush heavy and the other that is still flush heavy is drawing unprofitably even factoring in the times we give a little back by calling off slightly bad ott. Yes we want to make the best decision each street of each hand but on average we want to make more profitable decisions over the long term, if an opponent is making costly drawing errors and we sometimes make smaller redrawing errors it's overall profitable. Then consider a few spazz combos, sets and a pair+FD or two and it's often a correct call vs that range.

I would bet about 2/3 pot on flop. This puts draws in a no-win situation. Either they call to see one card with the wrong odds or they fold and you protect your equity.

Preflop sizing is ok except the result is bad with 5 callers. If this is typical, raise more to isolate better. KK is vulnerable to a large field.

Given the preflop action, the flop is absolutely as good as you can hope for, flopping the nuts. You win. Get money in. Don't for a second worry about not getting action. Stacks are shallow, pot commit yourself now. If you bet big and everyone folds, that's great. Someone might have 2 pair and call. There are flush draws and various straight draws that you can't let catch up for cheap, so your 30 bet is a big mistake as many cards are scare cards and will make future decisions hard. I would bet pot into this large field. Then if I get one caller, I have $82 left and can open ship any turn, including a flush turn. At that point you'd be risking 82 to win 352 or 4.3:1, odds to improve if you're behind are 4.6:1, but they won't have it 100% of the time so it's close enough. Most flush draws should have folded the flop to your large stack-committing bet, if they didn't they're gamblers and you have an edge to win their money eventually.

As played, the heart is scary and he likes it, you don't have odds to boat up, so fold. Unfortunate. V's player profile indicates he has a flush here most of the time.