1/2

Villain descriptions don't really matter.

EP player has about $90 and makes it $10 pf. SB has about $90 also and flats the $10. I'm in the BB.

So with pocket pairs, I thought there are 3 scenarios.
1) Have a pocket pair big enough and raise (in essence a shove whether you put the full $90 in or not) for value.
I thought this would be 99+
2) Have a pocket pair too small and have the wrong odds by far to mine because opponents' stacks are too small.
I thought this was 66-.
3) And I thought 77 and 88 was a grey area.

Is it villain dependent? If they're 100% willing to get ai with a hand as bad as JTo does that factor in?

I had 88 and flatted the $10, thinking if unders hit I would bet for value, obv if the 8 hits let them walk into it. The specific hand isn't a big deal, this is more of a strategy thread. It popped into my head that pairs small enough would have been a fold and I was wondering if 88/77 was in that fold range, or right on the border, or maybe an obv shove and I was dead wrong.

Yeah this i villain dependent. It always is.
The money SB put in is almost always dead money you can pick up with a raise.
If opponent is tight and has almost no folding range we should fold 22-99 and raise get it in with TT+.
If hes loose but folding to alot of 3bet and not 4bet worse than KK/AA we can 3bet any PP here profitable (3bet/fold).
If villain is loose aggresive i think we should have no 3bet/f range and commit with 77+.


So you see its completly villain dependent but it just depends on the EP player. SB is not that big of a deal.

If both players are loose, I would 3bet 66+ for value. It's an awkward stack size, but we should just shove it, rather than make it $60 or something.

You could always fold 66 here if you want to play it safe.

But this spot just feels like two donks playing random cards. Information on the opener's tendencies is most important. The guy flatting the $10 is just a fish with napkins.

Shoving is also good for our meta-game. It makes us look powerful / a little crazy, which is a great image to have.

Shoving 22 to 1010 is just looking to coinflip against a shortstack.

Majority of these shortstack donk morons are rasising 1010+ and Aj+

Not much fold equity ever.

I usually fold unless I get 15x or better on set mining.

I think ranging the EP player is key in this spot. SB flatting with only 45 bbs seems weak, so I think you are ahead of him/her.

If you can include hands like AJ/AT I'd probably 3-bet AI. Only 6 hands are ahead of you.

I'd fold 44-.

This is all incredibly dependent on the player(s) involved.

If the opening raiser has been active PF, I like shoving over his raise.

If he's a nit who hasn't played many pots, and has been pushed around all day (hence the short stack), then we should just fold.

The situation here for set mining is a bit better then you suggest. This is the problem with raises to 1/10 of stack from the callers perspective. Your pot odds are not great, but if you do hit a set and villain catches top pair or has an over pair, you have a much better then usual chance of stacking them. Against one villain I would still let this go, but with two I would consider calling to set mine.

I wouldn't expect to have any FE, so I'm only raising/shoving if I want to get it in preflop. Something like AK/TT+ depending on villain's ranges, and this wander a lot here. Not just EP's range matters, but SB's range for flatting. If he is the sort who could be weak here, then raising to force him out is good. If SB is bad/nitty and has an AQ/TT+ range here and could be flatting with QQ+, then raising with less then QQ+ is bad.

Short stacked, I guess you're always in a shove/fold situation.

Stoving it:

If villain is playing 50% of hands here, 44 is +EV, 33 is -EV
If villain is playing 15% of hands here, 99 is +EV, 88 is -EV

Against two villains playing 15% of hands here, QQ is +EV, JJ is -EV

CAn't help OP is thinking about this the wrong way and strongly disagree with lots of the responses.

Obv it is very villain dependent as others have mentioned. The thing that gets me is 45bb is not THAT short stacked. It is definitely not a push shove spot if villains are super exploitable post flop.

You are not set mining every time you flat a raise with a pocket pair FFS.

Stop trying to find easy fixes and think carefully about your opponents ranges and how your actions will effect them. Folding/calling and shoving will all be optimal depending on a bunch of factors.

You're getting 22:8 or 2.75:1 to call with a pocket pair from the big blind. Your ~ a 4:1 underdog against an over-pair and in the flip range against two over cards. You're 7.5:1 against making a set. If you hit your set you'll have paid 4bb for a chance to stack either the sb or ep for their remaining 40bb. If you miss you'll be playing in position against a sb caller and oop against an ep raiser. This is why it's player dependent. Are either of the players, particularly the ep raiser, exploitable post flop with a tp hand or an over-pair hand against a made set? This seems likely due to their stack size. Are you capable of exploiting while not be exploited by either of them on certain flops when you miss your set but they also miss with their over cards? If you have a small pair could you ever get the sb to fold a middle pair? Would the ep raiser ever fold JJ or QQ on AK flop if you float? This is unlikely due to flop pot-size, his c-bet size and remaining stack size? 3-betting might eliminate the sb player but it also most likely forces you to play a much bigger pot with less information (at best flipping) with a marginal holding. 40bb (70bb deep is standard?) is traditionally a little shallow for set mining but you only have to call 4bb to potentially win 40bb (it's unlikely you stack both players) and have a few ways to win the hand. It seems like the correct play is to call and evaluate.

Yes I see you are correct, in that hero doesn't have to shove/fold pre. I'm just thinking since the bet is 10% of effective stacks then, as Harrington puts it, these players are "courting pot commitment," and hero needs to be thinking ahead.

Agree ranging the opponent is important, but dang. SB might be calling light, but not many players are open-raising 10% of their stack from EP with trash. I think we are kind of beyond assessing exploitability and into the range of assessing villain's sanity!

Again, generously stoving it, if SB is playing 50% of hands, EP is playing 15%, hero needs JJ to be +EV pre.

#

So key features, the way I see it:
1. What does it mean, at this level, when someone open-raises in EP?
2. How do stack sizes factor in? What does it mean at this level when villain open-raises 10% of his stack?
3. What happens to your EV when you have two villains, instead of one?

This just seems just head-smackingly obvious to me. The saner the initial raiser, the smaller the SPR, and the more people in the pot--- I don't care who these jokers are, OP should bring some equity to the table. I'm not saying I wouldn't spaz-shove 66 in this situation; I'm just saying I would probably be wrong for doing so, as I so often am And afterwards, I would tell myself, "Dave, you need to pay more attention to stack sizes."


As a side note, am pleased that I have finally found a use for Jacks. Gonna file this one away.

[QUOTE=quesuerte;39540010]The thing that gets me is 45bb is not THAT short stacked. [QUOTE]

Yes. And bumping a $10 raise up to $90 will be value owning yourself with most mid-pp's against most villains. It would be better to manipulate stack sizes so you can shove the flop with second pair and sometimes third pair.

Bump it up to $35. Call if 4-bet. Shove w/ 2nd pair if no Ace flops. Shove with third pair if no ace or king. Of course, you probably don't want do this against uber tight adversaries.

Short stacked, position is not as important. Stronger villain may be opening a little bit lighter than usual from that position for that reason - maybe AQ+, 8's+, maybe KQ or AJs.

88+, maybe not 77, is ahead of most of this. (88 might be borderline.) If villain flats his broadway cards, rather than shoves, hero will get big +EV.

^

What is the point of 3betting to $35? If you're planning on calling off a 4bet, why not just jam the whole thing in yourself? You'll have tons more fold equity.

They both sat recently, with only $100, so no one too good sits with 50BB. But aside from that couldn't assign ranges. This was in a vacuum more or less... which brings me to this...

I know lol. Everyone has overlooked the question I originally proposed. QQ obv would be a raise for value while 22 would be a mine. Getting closer to the border, JJ would also be a raise for value while 33 would still be a mine. Where (in a vacuum and with these Villains' stack sizes) would we make the cutoff?

99

Depends entirely on V's range.
If V opens all pocket pairs then JJ is way ahead of their range.
If they only open premiums (JJ+) then it is way behind.

Give V some ranges (tight tight vs slightly wider but reasonable) on pokerstove and compare how well each PP does vs them. You'll be surprised how much of an equity jump there is going up by just 1.

You'll understand why some players advocate only playing premiums vs short-stackers.

Obviously if V never opens 77 or below, 22-77 are identical.

Yes, but do want the fold equity? You won't scoop up much ($20). You're against two big cards roughly 2/3 of the time assuming the short stacks aren't super tight.

You are a 1.4-1 favorite against these preflop. In contrast, you are as much as 3-1 favorite if they miss. Much will depend on flop texture though.

Moreover, it'll be obvious you don't have KK+, so the $90 won't protect you against QQ-10's. I can see shoving if you have 10's or 9's and think you will get called by 77's and 88's. (This would answer OP's question - shove only 99 unless villains are super loose.) Otherwise, it just seems awkward to shove $90 into a $20 pot.