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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 01-06-2019, 09:31 PM   #1
krilleater
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Flush draw + straight draw OTT

Here's an interesting hand where I'm mostly curious how you would play on various rivers.

Game is reg-infested with average $1k stacks, $1/3. I'm effective in this hand with $450. V1 is a young reg. He plays a reasonable preflop range but very tight post-flop. Never bluffs. V2 is a loose gamble type.

Folds to me in CO and I open 9hTh to $20 (standard size in this game), V1 calls on btn, V2 calls from BB.

Flop ($60): Js8s5h

Check, I bet $20, V1 calls, V2 calls.

Flopping an OESD with a backdoor flush is a great result for this hand, so it seems like a standard c-bet. Should I have sized up here? I've been experimenting with smaller c-bet sizes with my whole range because nobody really folds any piece in this game, but this sizing is sufficient to get them to fold their hands like two overs or an underpair. Thoughts?

Turn ($120): 3h

Check, I bet $60, V1 min-raises to $120, V2 folds.

Hero?

V1 is very nitty post-flop so this is pretty much exclusively sets, either 88 or 55 (he 3-bets JJ). Obviously not folding here considering his terrible sizing gives me direct odds to continue before even considering implied odds.

I'm mostly interested in how people would approach various rivers. Going into the river the pot will be $360 and I'll be left with $290 behind. I'm definitely jamming any heart and any 7/Q, but I think jamming any spade also makes sense as a nit is mostly afraid of the front-door flush. Also curious if this would be a good spot for an overbet jam if I were deeper. Ex. $450-500 OTR (when either flush or the straight hits). x/f any brick.

Thoughts on all streets appreciated.

Last edited by krilleater; 01-06-2019 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:46 PM   #2
ralphykid67
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Re: Flush draw + straight draw OTT

Stakes? Assuming 2/5? I want to bet bigger on this flop to take it down right here with T high. As played just call turn with a great price on a lot of outs. We can check fold brick rivers confidently if this guy is so tight.

Edit* Not sure about bluffing river spades. Seems a bit fancy as he can still call us with something like AJhh and any flopped set.
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:49 PM   #3
krilleater
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Re: Flush draw + straight draw OTT

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Originally Posted by ralphykid67 View Post
Stakes? Assuming 2/5? I want to bet bigger on this flop to take it down right here with T high. As played just call turn with a great price on a lot of outs. We can check fold brick rivers confidently if this guy is so tight.
It's $1/3, but with frequent straddles and deep stacks.

Definitely calling the turn (not considering anything else).

Do you ever bluff jam the river if the front door flush hits (spades)? It's probably the hand he's most afraid of and I think a nit has a hard time calling it off there.

Also, he never raises AJhh. His raising range is exclusively 2-pair+ in all the time I've played with him (reg).
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Old 01-06-2019, 09:50 PM   #4
ralphykid67
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Re: Flush draw + straight draw OTT

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Originally Posted by krilleater View Post
It's $1/3, but with frequent straddles and deep stacks.

Definitely calling the turn (not considering anything else).

Do you ever bluff jam the river if the front door flush hits? It's probably the hand he's most afraid of.
See my edit.
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Old 01-07-2019, 12:29 AM   #5
the_dude_174
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Re: Flush draw + straight draw OTT

Would you only bet $20 OTF with QQ+, AJ, KJ, sets?
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Old 01-07-2019, 02:28 AM   #6
krilleater
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Re: Flush draw + straight draw OTT

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Would you only bet $20 OTF with QQ+, AJ, KJ, sets?
Yes, I would usually bet my whole range the same here since there aren't *that* many calling hands and the board isn't terribly wet. In general I've been experimenting with smaller c-bets w/ my entire range on flops like this.
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Old 01-07-2019, 01:28 PM   #7
gobbledygeek
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Re: Flush draw + straight draw OTT

With the loose gambool guy in the BB I don't think there is anything wrong with open limping this hand, but opening is fine too (especially with non short stacks) and might even be better if we can isolate him (although isolating is *hard*, imo). Too bad the Button came along.

I'm either/or on the flop. If I'm cbetting (which I'm fine with) I'm definitely choosing the smaller sizing (as mostly the size of the bet has no effect on whether anyone continues or not so long as it is "reasonable"). I don't hate checking either, although betting does give us a better chance at setting the bet size and sometimes we take down the pot with T high.

Against two opponents and one of those guys being a loose guy who is unlikely to fold, I think I mostly check the turn. We might not have much FE at this point plus it sucks to get raised. Thankfully the raise size was horrendous and we're easily getting the odds to simply call and try to hit. I'd never try to get fancy here against a guy that ain't getting out-of-line postflop.

On the river with < PSB left I'd jam any non-pairing draw that hits (although if he mostly has sets here there is likely some argument for check/jamming, especially the more disguised OESD outs). I like the idea of bluffing the spade draw, but I don't think there is any reason to jam; I'd do like a 1/2 PSB bet which should get the job done enough to be profitable (although, having said that, it does kinda look like a blocking bet with an overpair, so perhaps we get looked up more often than we'd like).

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 01-07-2019, 05:19 PM   #8
krilleater
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Re: Flush draw + straight draw OTT

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
With the loose gambool guy in the BB I don't think there is anything wrong with open limping this hand, but opening is fine too (especially with non short stacks) and might even be better if we can isolate him (although isolating is *hard*, imo). Too bad the Button came along.

I'm either/or on the flop. If I'm cbetting (which I'm fine with) I'm definitely choosing the smaller sizing (as mostly the size of the bet has no effect on whether anyone continues or not so long as it is "reasonable"). I don't hate checking either, although betting does give us a better chance at setting the bet size and sometimes we take down the pot with T high.

Against two opponents and one of those guys being a loose guy who is unlikely to fold, I think I mostly check the turn. We might not have much FE at this point plus it sucks to get raised. Thankfully the raise size was horrendous and we're easily getting the odds to simply call and try to hit. I'd never try to get fancy here against a guy that ain't getting out-of-line postflop.

On the river with < PSB left I'd jam any non-pairing draw that hits (although if he mostly has sets here there is likely some argument for check/jamming, especially the more disguised OESD outs). I like the idea of bluffing the spade draw, but I don't think there is any reason to jam; I'd do like a 1/2 PSB bet which should get the job done enough to be profitable (although, having said that, it does kinda look like a blocking bet with an overpair, so perhaps we get looked up more often than we'd like).

GcluelessNLnoobG
Against a looser or more aggressive V, I'd probably just limp behind here but this guy is the type who actually is fairly tight with his button defense range.

OTT, $60 is actually something of a blocker bet. If I checked to V, I expect him to bet closer to $80-100 with most of his flop-calling range. Plus, sometime I get spades to fold here (he doesn't chase draws too often).

Why bother with the risk of V somehow checking through the river when I expect he's always looking up a <PSB when the most obvious draw hits. I could see the argument if we were deeper, but I don't think I gain any additional value from checking—any hand which is strong enough to bet the river itself probably feels compelled to call a river donk.

I doubt we have any FE with anything less than a jam. This V is definitely the type to at least be thinking about pot odds and 1/2 PSB offers way too good of odds if we're going to bluff at all.
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