To try and actually have a quality topic that doesn't get derailed. I'm keeping this short, no money, no stakes, no hands, no results.


Action

Late position makes it 5BB. Hero calls in BB with suited one-gappers. 2 other callers.

Flop (20BB) Kd 6c 2d
Hero - leads 8BB
V1 (original raiser) flats
All else fold

Turn (36BB)- Brick
Hero checks
V1 shoves for 14BB

Hero?

I'll post hands and all that if people can handle it.

you get yourself even deeper in the hole with such threads/statements.
why don´t you post the hands? don´t you think it´s relevant?

Not this time.

Big question is do you make the turn call for less than half the pot to an all in. Mid-pair and FD. You're dead if you don't make the flush, and know this.

Read the stickies:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-guide-902936/

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...-asap-1031043/

It's really that simple - just follow the stickies and some common sense by reading how others create posts.

I asked a question about a Turn call with a FD to a 1/3 PSB. You know you are drawing and drawing only to a flush.

I don't see anything about this in your post.

Hands would help here, and we can re-create effective stacks as 27BBs.

Against a stack this short, I'm folding my speculative hand OOP PF unless I have a read that more (deeper) players are coming along for the ride.

AP, I don't mind the price setting lead OTF, assuming that the other two who called pre are deeper than V.

Not sure why you're checking the turn. Are you trying to induce? I'd keep the initiative and shove, with nice equity to fall back on if called.

AP, we can obv never fold here. We have at least 9 outs (likely 14 if two-pair or trips are good) and we *could* already be good with our middle pair. Our call will only be ~22% of the pot, and we are ~18% to hit our flush. That means we are almost there for equity just with the FD. If trips outs are good we are exactly at the right equity, and if two pair outs are good we're ahead of the game. Factor in a small short-stack spazz factor into V's range, and this is a clear call.

so? what´s the complicated thing you need help then?
14 to win 50, pot odds 3.5 to 1. one card coming, 9 good cards, 37 bad cards, 4:1. no, you don´t have correct odds to call if only your flush outs are good.
really that complicated that you need help? surely you knew already that you need more than 4:1 pot odds to mathematically justify a call with only a flush draw ott, so what was the point of this thread?

speaking of ranges it´s a different thing whether we can get it in or not. i don´t know how you know we are only drawing to a flush either.

Good post. We know about my PF range by now though

I check the turn for 2 reasons. 1. Keep my draw cheap, I thought he'd check behind, maybe small bet but not all in. 2. I want to find out where I'm at before I commit to my draw. I think if I bet he shoves regardless his holding. I check call because I now know I'm up against a big pair.

I agree with the last bit. At the shove I put JJ+, so set is possible, either way I don't like board pairs, two pair I think is dead. But like you say odds are great for my flush.

Take out your sarcasm and great post, let's dive in.

Simply, no, I did not. And hence made the thread to ask. As you'll see, there is already conflicting advice in this thread.

This was my hard read that I stuck to, I'm a solid soul reader. As my style, I need to know when to get out and when to push. (I recently folded bottom boat OTT to what ended up being limped AA for quads) Soul reading is important, sometimes I miss value, sometimes I misread. I come out positive and that's all that matters right?

Results and Hand:

Hero holds 68dd. Makes the call, proclaims I'm calling but I need lots of help dealer.

River - diamond

"And there it is", tables the flush.

Villain tables QQ, mumbles how bad I am and storms off. To be fair, he was technically always second best to the board. Didn't have a large enough stack to push me off, in addition to me not going anywhere having already committed.

see, you even had 5 additional outs beside your fd, which makes a huge difference. don´t you think it´s important whether you have 68dd than 79dd? now you beat every flushdraw which are a good portion of his range and are up to 30% from 20% against his actual hand. in this situation, your hand matters since mathematically you should fold getting only 3.5 to 1 with a bare fd and no play left but definitely call with 15 outs getting 3.5 to 1. same with Ax, you could already be ahead, so your exact hand matters.

fwiw, i would always open jam in this situation or, as played, always call, so nice hand, and villain who berates you would surely call here as well, he just doesn´t seem to be a good loser.

Great post.

I do think it matters. But not including it has avoided a lot of unnecessary focus o this time around