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Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

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Old 04-12-2014, 08:28 PM   #1
odogg99
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flopping top set OOP on dry board

This is more of a general question for extracting value than a specific hand but I did have a hand come up last night that I'd like some thoughts on

Aria 1-3 the game is pretty loose passive but i'm playing TAG with one mark at the table. The calling station is on my right.

Hero dealt KK in MP with 2 limps I raise to 18 and get 5 callers including the station. Im 3rd to act after the flop out of the 6 of us.

Flop (108$) is K102
Checked to me and I bet $20 on this pretty dry board in my mind hoping to induce a raise and Im not even upset if the whole damn table calls. I just don't want everyone folding to a 50% bet. Is this fine or a check or more like 40%?

As played I get 2 callers including the station.

Turn ($168) 5 Now i'm wanting to set up a river shove so I bet $100 with 450 left behind. V1 has 500 before the bet and the station has 150 left.
Both fold and I take it down.
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Old 04-12-2014, 09:36 PM   #2
Steve00007
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Re: flopping top set OOP on dry board

Bet is way too small on the flop. Someone with QJ has great odds to try and draw out on you. Even a gutshot like AQ, AJ and J9 might not be making a mistake by calling there.

Also the small bet on the flop made it easier for villains to fold when you tried to bet 100 on the turn. If you had made a bigger bet on the flop, then it would be more tempting for them to call the turn bet because the pot is bigger. If they fold to a bigger bet on the flop, then you probably wouldn't have made much after the flop anyway.

I don't think that board is nearly as dry as you think. There are some hands people play that hit that board. A pair of kings, a pair of tens, pocket tens, pocket deuces, and straight draws hit it. Villains with gutshots like AQ and AJ will overestimate their hands and think the ace gives them extra outs for top pair. A really bad player might call with just an ace, and someone could call with A2 or AT thinking that they could get trips or two pair.
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Old 04-13-2014, 12:59 AM   #3
Willyoman
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Re: flopping top set OOP on dry board

Just one thought.

You don't always make more money with stronger hands.

In fact, top set is a great example.

When you have top set, it's very hard for anyone to have top pair.

Middle set (especially when pre-flop action effectively ensures you have the best set) is going to be more profitable almost always. You prefer to have TT here.

You can and should often slow play top set to let someone catch up. Here however I don't love giving a free card to QJ. If the board was K83r instead, that's a required checking situation. Here I'm more inclined to bet. Another reason to bet is that it's pretty hard for soneone to "catch up" and improve to a hand you beat that gives you much value. For example, only one card - A - could improve soneone to top pair. Contrast that to a T42r board where you have top set with TT. By slow playing that board, you give someone a chance to make top pair with A, K, Q, J.

So lots if factors to consider. Reality is with KK on KTx, you're just not winning a ton of chips very often.
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:04 AM   #4
Willyoman
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Re: flopping top set OOP on dry board

Oh yeah so I'd bet the flop. $55 works.
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Old 04-13-2014, 01:34 AM   #5
Nocturnal_Joker
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Re: flopping top set OOP on dry board

With 6 people in the hand, in real life I'd be likely to check and hope it doesn't check through...if we decide to bet though, with $100+ already in the pot, I'm firing $40-55
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Old 04-13-2014, 09:33 AM   #6
Koss
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Re: flopping top set OOP on dry board

Not much you can do to get more value here. Unless you have a serial bluffer behind you who can't let a flop check through, just go ahead and bet it around 1/2 pot. Top set on a dry board is never going to be a hand where you're likely to get a stack. However you are usually better playing it fast and hoping one of your calling station customers peels the flop with something like T9, and binks a T or 9.
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Old 04-13-2014, 10:11 AM   #7
Duke0424
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At a loose/passive game, there is no reason to bet to induce a raise. People aren't raising enough to do that. You want to do that in aggressive games.
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