Sat down at a 1/3 within first orbit this hand is played

Hero h/j opens 44 ($374)
C/O calls ($150)
Button calls ($75)

Flop A 4 3 rainbow

Hero check here with the idea that I'm not one to continue betting with out Ax hands and thinking that Ax and small pairs would be betting this flop keeping my range wide

Action checks through

Turn 5 of clubs bringing back door flushdraw

Hero checks
C/O bets 5 dollars
Button folds
Hero raises to 20
C/O raises to 40

River comes Q of hearts
Hero checks
C/O bets 40

I raised on the turn thinking I could be getting a call from a wide variety of two pairs that I am crushing, I think a flop lead for around 20 would have been much better to get Ax and draws to call but as played does Hero check call or check fold the river?

Seeing how this hand played not too long after sitting down and there aren't any given reads do I just bet 3 streets for value here?

How much did you open for? Knowing pot size is important for evaluating this hand. In any case always bet this flop. You raised preflop, ace high flop, multiple opponents and not having reads on opponents are all good reasons to bet

Turn raise is fine. The near min reraise is scary when any 2 makes a straight. But having played the hand to trap it would be too weak to give up yet. Really need to know pot size on the river but I'm inclined to call. Straights should be unlikely and villain can be betting worse for value. I wouldn't expect it to be very profitable but your hand is massively under represented.

Sorry forgot to mention I opened for 11

The more I play, the more I convince myself that open limping in this spot is fine. Raising is probably also fine, and does have the benefit of metagame (where we're not the nit only raising TT+/AK), but with these shorter stacks behind us it's actually a lot more meh. I'm guessing it's pretty arguable.

What did we open to? I'll assume $12, which means the pot is $35ish, which means the SPR is 4ish against the bigger stack and just 2 against the smaller stack. This means that we could risk the flop checking thru and yet still be able to play for the largish stack with 2 PSBs on the bigger streets. However we do risk a 5/2 coming to kill our action. But checking does allow someone without an A to perhaps catch up to something they might start getting chips in with. I'd probably mostly lean to a 1/2 PSB but don't think a check is horrible (and I'd lean towards a check if any of these guys is bluffy vs weakness).

Turn card is one of the reasons the flop check is risky, but there are pros and cons to everything. I might just call the lol bet on the turn and see a river and see what happens, especially since he could blow us off our boat draw with a bigger raise. Next time post stack sizes, but at this point it's pretty clear he has a straight (a 3bet on any big street is the ~nuts, ime) and it's a simple math question as to whether we can chase our boat outs.

Given this action I sigh fold the river.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I'm never folding; if he can have a deuce, he can have a lot of medium aces and two pairs (A5/A4/A3) as well that were "super cleverly trapping" by checking the flop.

I'm also never raising.

I guess that leaves calling.

(I also would have bet the flop; people with an ace aren't folding, and we may as well start getting value from them now.)

Bet the flop. You hace flopped a monster and want to start building a pot here. Bet small so that you don't scare people away. You are losing value on every street if you don't start betting right away.

You wouldn't cbet with AK here? So I assume you're checking your entire range on this flop if you aren't cbetting an ace or a set. I'm not sure I follow the logic behind open raising 44 and checking your entire range on an ace high board.

Either way, checking flop is fancy play syndrome. You just sat down and assume that the rest of the table will know exactly how you would typically play an ace here. Most 1/3 players are going to cbet this flop with or without an ace.

Bet the flop. No one with an ace is folding here, and you aren't disguising your hand at all when you check this flop and on the turn and river start stuffing chips in.

Flopping middle set on an ace high board is pretty much the most straightforward cbet flop you're going to see.

With a larger SPR (one which requires 3 postflop streets to play for stacks) and the importance of playing for stacks outweighing everything else, a flop bet would be much more mandatory. With these smaller SPRs (where stacks can still be played for even if the flop checks thru), and a relatively drawless board, it's not as mandatory.

GimoG

I like betting the flop here if my cbet percentage rate is high, however it is not the case my cbet percentage is not as high as it should be because in majority of my games it goes multi way when I'm oop with a hand like AK or AQ raising preflop. On an A high board wouldn't it be reasonable to check my entire range of pairs to keep pot control? In which case a check raise on the turn could be seen as fos raise turning my pair or weak holdings into a bluff due to his 5$ bet into a pot of 37$. I think calling the turn reraise to 40 is fine too as I think we are getting close to the right price if we are behind and sometimes could be ahead if he had 2 pair type hands in his range. That is just how I saw it

Grunching:

No need to get tricky her without reads or a table image. Bet three streets for value. Most V's with the mediocre A's or a S/Mid PP are more likely to call a reasonable size than bet themselves. Everyone will suspect that you have a strong Ace anyways. Two Pairs will get their money in regardless give stack sizes. You probably won't make much money here most of the time.

Don't give a free card. Given your hand strength, you are going to let somebody double up on you if they suck out.

Against TAG's a case could be made for checking the turn. You don't have that read though.

BTW, preflop was clearly a limp/call. If you were 3-bet, SPR's would have been low enough to make you fold. No point in deception given stack sizes.

I don't agree with your premise regarding SPR, but even if I did, the numbers don't add up to play for stacks if the flop checks through.

Once that happens, the pot is around $33. Even if we lead $25 (a nearly pot sized bet) and get one caller (in this case, the CO), the pot is $83 going to the river and villain has $114 remaining. I guess we could overbet jam, otherwise we aren't getting stacks in without some sort of a miracle raise in there.

We flopped middle set on an ace high board. Zero reason to not just bet, bet, bet and get the money in.

No. You're missing a ton of value by checking this flop 100% of the time regardless of your holdings. At 1/3, no need to balance or assume your opponents are thinking on the next level. They very likely are not.

So? Like, that's not relevant to the situation. What's relevant is what you do with the rest of your range on Axx when it's specifically 3 handed. There you should be cbetting more or less your entire range, with the exception of like JJ-KK maybe, also checking the occasional AK.

No. Never structure your ranges passively on flops (or turns or rivers) that are better for your range than they are for your opponents. Bet your value hands and add bluffs to balance. I don't really understand any of what you're talking about here tbh, if you have 44 pre here then you have a pile of hands which want to bluff this flop.

As played, you can't really x/r the turn. CO checked the flop, so presumably he doesn't have an ace. If you x/r and he doesn't have an ace or a hand that beats you, he's going to fold almost always. He might call with a 6, but if you flat turn and check to him on river he'll bet with that. I know it's annoying that he only bet $5, but that's the nature of flopping a big hand and then trying to make your opponents bet for you.

I guess I fold the river since some guy sitting 1/3 with $150 probably doesn't reraise turn with anything except straights.

Well OP did a pretty poor job of laying things out for us (next time post raise sizes and pot sizes OP, standard stuff!), but...

Assuming a $12 open, with 2 calls and the blinds, that's a $40 pot. Most people don't figure in the rake when looking at the pot at this point even though $5 will be coming out of it at the end, but it you want to call it a ~$35 that's fine. Biggest starting stack was $150 - $12 = $138. So biggest SPR is $138 / $35 = 3.94, so about ~4. We can play for stacks in SPR 4 pots with two ~PSBs; if the flop checks thru, a $35 bet on the turn creates a HU pot of $105 and leaves a river shove of $103 behind. Keeping in mind that $35 and $105 bets are quite small $$$-wise in a 1/3 NL game and can easily be called; versus say an SPR pot of 4 where the pot is $300 and stacks behind are $1200, yeah, in that case you'll likely have to start betting early cuz $300 / $900 bets don't get called off easily (and in my room you'll actually run into the max bet of $700 rule which is ~never encountered).

I'm not saying a bet/bet/bet line is bad. I'm just saying that if we're going to stray from certain lines every so often, that this is a pretty good case to do so (few scare cards even though unfortunately one of them hit, few draws to charge, can still play for stacks if flop unfortunately checks thru, someone with air can hit a piece on the turn that will now be willing to put in a bet or two, people can bluff when we show weakness, an A will likely bet for us anyways, etc.).

Gflopiswhatevereither/orandeitherplayisfine,imoG

Checking flop is absolutely criminal. Flopping middle set, ESPECIALLY on an Ace-high board, is literally the biggest moneymaker in our arsenal. There's no reason to get tricky with these stack sizes, just b/b/shove and print $$$.

Agree with this 100%. Everyone else is over-thinking it.

Once the Vs have less than a PSB behind, I'm fist pump jamming over any bet or shoving myself.

Preflop callers have a lot of aces in their range. This is a mandatory C-bet. This is the type of C-bet situation you pray for. You have a great hand start building a pot.

What hands are you c-betting with if not this one?

+1

Pot control doesn't exist when effective stacks are $150. (50 BB's)

I call he shows up with the nuts straight 67o

Flop check is awful.

I think every single street has debatable actions, but in my opinion the least horrendous is the flop check; the river payoff is by far a worse street (not remotely close, imo).

GcluelessNLnoobG

The flop play in this hand is absolutely unspeakably awful. You 100% need to be betting here and your decision to check is just a pointless surrender of money

Flop check is the worst by a country mile. Pre is fine. Turn raise is good, call is correct. River call is correct. Flop is just horrible.