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Old 12-01-2017, 04:28 AM   #1
Csirkefoga
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Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

Game is NL300
Start this hand with 600

I open ThTs in UTG + 1 to 9
Middle position playar calls (stack 300)
Hijack 3bets to 38 (stack 800)

I call and middle position calls as well

Flop 5h7hTd

What is the best line here, how do we extract most value?

Reads on opponents: middle position is a weak passive player, prone to calling with weaker holdings, three-bettor is a thinking aggressive player with a wider range, but doesnít do stupid things.
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Old 12-01-2017, 04:40 AM   #2
Viral25
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

X/c imo. We have the board locked up and want either MP to overcall or HJ to barrel. Go for a x/r on the turn, or on very bricky boards, x/c turn, x/r river.

x/r is fine also. Leading is kinda meh, but not terrible either.
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Old 12-01-2017, 05:13 AM   #3
Csirkefoga
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

I hate leading on this flop 3 ways. If it were heads up, I might donk with a small sizing to induce a raise.

My problem here: if I bet out, I donít give the middle position guy a chance to make a mistake. Also, Iíd fold out some of the 3betting hands of the HJ.
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Old 12-01-2017, 05:49 AM   #4
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

I bet half. I've tried to be cute in this situation and got burned for it. It'll check around often. I bet half pot.
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Old 12-01-2017, 06:14 AM   #5
Csirkefoga
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

I think donkbetting half pot folds significant range of HJís hands, that he would bet eith otherwise...
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Old 12-01-2017, 11:34 AM   #6
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

With a flush draw on the board, to me this is an auto-bet, something like $90 to deny proper drawing odds. And since this is a 3! pot, someone likely has an overpair and will either call or, more likely, raise you otf. If re-raised otf, just gii. If called, shove all non-heart turns.

Results?
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:33 PM   #7
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

Preflop with an aggressive player in position I probably would have open limped and evaluated (possibly to limp/reraise). Is this 1/3 NL? A $9 is a pretty small open that would see a 6way pot at any table I've ever played at, is this what we were going for? Facing the 3bet sucks, as we'll be OOP against a player who is aggressive enough not to have an overpair, so our setmining odds suck plus it will be gross playing him OOP (which is why I'd *much* rather limp to call a raise to keep the pot smaller than to build a hugenormous one preflop).

I'd donk a PSB. We're hoping the passive guy who calls with weak holdings does his thing and has something worth calling with. It would also be awesome if raiser actually has something as he won't be folding and might even raise if he's aggro. If raiser doesn't have anything there is too good a chance in a 3way pot with a calling station that it checks around, which would be a disaster.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 12-01-2017, 12:38 PM   #8
Irunsobad
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

I think this is a x/r. You want to charge hands like 89 or hearts to draw, and depending on your image i doubt villain is folding a hand like AKhh to a raise.
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Old 12-01-2017, 06:50 PM   #9
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

I like x/r OTF vs the 3-Bettor. He probably isn't folding an over pair or AK with a to a x/r extracting more value and you take control to lead the turn. Also, if the middle player is weak/passive you might extract some extra value OTF with your x/r from a flush draw where if you call he might fold out on a non turn
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Old 12-01-2017, 10:49 PM   #10
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

Checking the flop all day against a normal 1/3 NL 3 bet range. Let them bet this for you first.
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:26 AM   #11
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
Checking the flop all day against a normal 1/3 NL 3 bet range. Let them bet this for you first.


So thatís exactly what I did.
I figured Iíd lose money if I donked, what would be a good sizing if I donked anyway??

Weak player checks and HJ bets 70.

This is one of the toughest spots I was in recently. I want to play for HJís stack, but thereís a 3rd player with ~ 250 behind.

What to do here? Does anyone flat at all??? If You raise, sizing pls.


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Old 12-02-2017, 04:29 AM   #12
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

I vote for a raise on this board for two reasons:

We can rep draws in our range, making a call or even a 3 bet with aces defensible to a V

Lots of turn cards are scary to V. Our betting/raising range on lots of turn cards looks strong. And it could go check check on these turns if we try to check to get a second bet out of them

Sizing...kinda small because I’m looking for calls from overpairs.
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:32 AM   #13
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

Keep in mind Vs range is mostly big pairs and over cards.
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Old 12-02-2017, 04:34 AM   #14
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
I vote for a raise on this board for two reasons:

We can rep draws in our range, making a call or even a 3 bet with aces defensible to a V

Lots of turn cards are scary to V. Our betting/raising range on lots of turn cards looks strong. And it could go check check on these turns if we try to check to get a second bet out of them

Sizing...kinda small because Iím looking for calls from overpairs.


Exactly.

So if I were to only call, then the fish comes along with who knows what. Maybe even a gutterball... whatís even worse, if I just call I canít bet the turn without pretty much my hand being face up. So by calling Iím also risking having to give 2 freecards to get value... but against 2 opponents?.

So I canít call, how do You size the raise?

Fish has about 260, I have 560 and HJ covers...


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Old 12-03-2017, 03:56 PM   #15
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

Forget about MP. If he's got a draw worth calling, he's going with it no matter what. We need to maximize the chance to get HJ's stack. I'm raising here because we can rep lots of Broadway hearts, and V won't be folding overpairs here. Raise to $240 and ship all turns.
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Old 12-03-2017, 06:25 PM   #16
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by SwolyswoND View Post
Forget about MP. If he's got a draw worth calling, he's going with it no matter what. We need to maximize the chance to get HJ's stack. I'm raising here because we can rep lots of Broadway hearts, and V won't be folding overpairs here. Raise to $240 and ship all turns.


To cut the story short, thatís exactly what I did (with that exact suzing), thinking: if MP has a FD heíll have to call off his stack to draw, and HJ canít really fold JJ+.

Result: MP instafolds, HJ tanks for about 2 minutes then folds kings face up, and Iíd been left thinking for 5 days now I lost value in this hand, just canít figure what would have been a better line.

I think calling is out of question on the flop. But maybe sizing to 160-190 would have signalled MP that heíd have to commit his entire stack to come along, and HJ might have found a call. Then on non-ace brick turn he would have probably called a shove, with so much in the pot already... but not sure


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Old 12-03-2017, 09:41 PM   #17
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

Depends on your image... If V folds KK face up, then it means you probably don’t x/r spots like this often enough as a bluff, and V knows you pretty much always have it. I, on the other hand, do get called down in spots like this because I play aggressively... If you would only ever x/c with draws on this flop, then I’d recommend x/c with top set too. It’s not so much about betting/raising to not give correct odds to draws as it is about playing your range as a whole effectively.
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Old 12-04-2017, 03:54 AM   #18
Csirkefoga
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Depends on your image... If V folds KK face up, then it means you probably donít x/r spots like this often enough as a bluff, and V knows you pretty much always have it. I, on the other hand, do get called down in spots like this because I play aggressively... If you would only ever x/c with draws on this flop, then Iíd recommend x/c with top set too. Itís not so much about betting/raising to not give correct odds to draws as it is about playing your range as a whole effectively.


Correct, I do play tight, and some people have taken notice. But this guy didnít know me, and weíve set at the table together for about 15mins before this hand happened.

Range balancing is on my homework list, but I find it pretty hard to bluff non-thinking opponents ...


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Old 12-04-2017, 10:33 AM   #19
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by Csirkefoga View Post
Correct, I do play tight, and some people have taken notice. But this guy didnít know me, and weíve set at the table together for about 15mins before this hand happened.

Range balancing is on my homework list, but I find it pretty hard to bluff non-thinking opponents ...


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Pocket's point is very valid, but the other point that in 1/2 or 1/3, x/r is such a sign of huge strength, and very, very few people know how to do it well (and the ones that do usually play 2/5 or better). I raise pretty aggressively, and x/r often gets fold outs. Honestly, with how nitty this forum is, I am surprised people suggest it as often as they do: Even fish are usually smart enough not to challenge a table nit x/r.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:37 AM   #20
Csirkefoga
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Pocket's point is very valid, but the other point that in 1/2 or 1/3, x/r is such a sign of huge strength, and very, very few people know how to do it well (and the ones that do usually play 2/5 or better). I raise pretty aggressively, and x/r often gets fold outs. Honestly, with how nitty this forum is, I am surprised people suggest it as often as they do: Even fish are usually smart enough not to challenge a table nit x/r.


Iím tight but far from being a Nit.
But tell me, if we donít bet out on the flop, what is the right line in Your most valued oppinion?


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Old 12-04-2017, 10:45 AM   #21
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Originally Posted by Csirkefoga View Post
Iím tight but far from being a Nit.
But tell me, if we donít bet out on the flop, what is the right line in Your most valued oppinion?


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I don't think there was anything wrong with a x/c here. Yeah, a spade here kind of sucks, but donking into a blank here on the turn is more likely to get a call than a raise on the flop. You also have the oppertunity to get a call here from the middle player, more than a bet + raise in front of him. But even if you were loose, LAGs don't use the x/r either. It's a spot that probably should be bluffed more, but really isn't which means it draws folds more often than it should.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:50 AM   #22
Csirkefoga
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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I don't think there was anything wrong with a x/c here. Yeah, a spade here kind of sucks, but donking into a blank here on the turn is more likely to get a call than a raise on the flop. You also have the oppertunity to get a call here from the middle player, more than a bet + raise in front of him. But even if you were loose, LAGs don't use the x/r either. It's a spot that probably should be bluffed more, but really isn't which means it draws folds more often than it should.


Donít know. I just really hate donkbetting this spot. Some ppl would fold overpairs, and You lose even more value.
Anyway, thanks for insight...

Next time I think Iíll try a simple call, and ship turn if a brick hits. I guess KK canít fold there any more...


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Old 12-04-2017, 10:54 AM   #23
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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Don’t know. I just really hate donkbetting this spot. Some ppl would fold overpairs, and You lose even more value.
Anyway, thanks for insight...

Next time I think I’ll try a simple call, and ship turn if a brick hits. I guess KK can’t fold there any more...


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I do as well. You are basically picking between two really bleh choices: You either x/r or donk bet (I would never advise checking here on even a blanked turn). It's one of the problems of being OOP with premium holdings. I think it's one of those "know your table" moments. If people don't respect the x/r, and will call you off, go nuts. If they don't, donking is slightly more likely to get the chips in than a check raise will.
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:58 AM   #24
Csirkefoga
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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I do as well. You are basically picking between two really bleh choices: You either x/r or donk bet (I would never advise checking here on even a blanked turn). It's one of the problems of being OOP with premium holdings. I think it's one of those "know your table" moments. If people don't respect the x/r, and will call you off, go nuts. If they don't, donking is slightly more likely to get the chips in than a check raise will.


I think the other major factor of not being able to play optimally in this spot (apart from being OOP) is having a fish in the sandwich. He can have any holdings, his range is unguessable. Had I been alone w/HJ I prolly could have played for stacks... oh well.



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Old 12-04-2017, 11:02 AM   #25
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Re: Flopped top set OOP in 3bet pot

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I think the other major factor of not being able to play optimally in this spot (apart from being OOP) is having a fish in the sandwich. He can have any holdings, his range is unguessable. Had I been alone w/HJ I prolly could have played for stacks... oh well.



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FOr sure. It's why I also liked the x/c here. Fish would have been more likely to call a 70 call in mp, than a x/r player with someone else to act behind (as 210/300 basically commits to the pot).
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