V1 is bad stationy MAWG who possibly will stab as a bluff when a street checks though. $400

V2 is a big talking black guy, always plays table captain, very LAG, running over the table. Has a lot of history with Hero and I think he is scared of me (though will never admit it). A lot less likely to raise, bluff at pots that I am in. Tends to play his hands fast and is afraid of being outdrawn. $150

Hero: TAG, have coolered V2 in big pots in the past, also made some successful hero calls and bluffs vs him. I read him well and I think he knows it. Basically just folding for 30min at this table. $Covers

$1/2

Hero posts $2 in CO, a few limpers including V1 in MP, hero checks 64, V2 calls, 5 or 6 way

Flop: 753

checks to hero who bets $10, V2 clicks it back to $20, V1 CC´s, hero? Plan?

*Not sure if V2 would raise w. AXcc here, his sizing seems small for non nut flushes. I think he is raising a lot of hands here with the plan to take a free card OTT UI. vs. Hero, not sure than he will bluff the late streets.

Call/re-evaluate turn.

CK-F. It's best to immediately recognize that you're well near the bottom of your range here, in a 5 way limped pot, often with only the thinnest VBs available now and likely none on later streets even w/o another club falling. It certainly doesn't help that you're sandwiched between a LAG and a Station either, but all in all your hand will not benefit from having this pot get larger and you already have 2 opponents looking to do so.

+1.

Not sure what call/eval turn means other than call to c/f turn, or pray that it somehow just checks to showdown. We have zero outs to improve our hand plus we have V1 who cold called V2's raise (even though V1 is a station).

There's no good plan to win if we call. We're never betting again so we can't fold out better unless we turn our hand into a bluff. If turn is a brick and we check and V2 bets again, we fold. If turn checks through and V1 bets OTR, we fold. If river checks to V2 and he bets, maybe then we call but it depends on reads and sizing.

We already have a read that he's less likely to bluff raise and that he plays his hands fast. I'd go with that read.

In theory, it makes some sense if the other players have bet-sizing tells which will let you know if you have the best hand on the turn or not, plus there is a chance that a scare card gives you the ability to bluff.

I'm not convinced that betting the flop was the best play here against these specific villains.

the problem is we're 200 bb's deep with a hand that could very easily be drawing dead and can not improve. And furthermore, we can pretty much assume a lot more money is going into the pot after the flop.

I wish he would have raised more so the fold would have been easier. I'm not going to lie, but in the game I would prob call the min raise myself but on paper I think we should fold.

What about a min-raise/fold? Lots of villains will re-raise their flushes and just call with their bare Ac. Is this that kind of villain?

On the other hand, the min-raise to 20 looks super strong, and raising could just be burning money. Like the above poster, I don't think I would fold for just another 10$ there, I would at least call, but I think folding might be the right play.

Is this a joke? Do you really think we're only getting value from flushes?

I kind of like checking the flop to keep the pot small. I don't think a bet accomplishes much but it can certainly cost you a ton. Your hand is like 25th best right now, so don't build a big pot for someone else.

I'll assume you mean flush draws... But it's all a moot point 5 ways with a hand that is only a small favorite against the weakest subset of any single reasonable calling range let alone facing a bet and a raise against potentially 4-5 full ranges.
fwiw, sets>straight from a pure equity standpoint, with the former also benefitting from better playability, implied odds, and a more reasonable use of FE. The prospect of playing profitably when betting/calling raises with a static equity hand on a monotone flop where ranges quickly strengthen/narrow is dubious.

I don't think it looks strong at all, but I guess it depends on the player.

OP, you're bragging you read this guy so well, so trust your own reads then, I'd say.

Tough spot,
You have to bet this flop near 100% of the time just to make the draws pay, if they call on the flop then go with your reads at evaluate the turn.
I feel v1 might have the Ax clubs or a flush here just with the call.
The issue is what do you make of v2 raise is he capable of raising with some combo draw? The raise seems so weak.
I really dont know what you can do here and be in a good spot, if you call and then fold the turn cause v's bet again then you might as well fold on the flop. You are getting a decent price too call but that doesnt really matter if you are drawing dead to the flush.
Is this a spot where you can reraise then fold?
I think I would just fold and move on.
Maybe v2 is bluffing, good for him he picked the right time when you had this hand.

Agree with checking back:

1. The pot is small.
2. It's another case where we don't get called often and when we do get called, we have a tough road ahead and we don't have a ton of equity against the calling range. I.e. very thin value.

AP, unless you have a read that these are the world's fish, release.

checking flop is not good.

call the min raise now. see if he continues weird small sizing on further streets.

Um, you'll get to "see if he continues weird small sizing on further streets" if you fold. So what would be the reason to pay to see it?

It seems like yo'ure saying in the OP he's doing this with made flushes for value and his flush draws to take a free card on the turn. Did I get that right? Then just call now, and plan to fold to a double barrel. Possibly bluff catch blank rivers if he checks behind OTT. Not sure what else you could even do here? You can't reraise for value because you're up against a range of strong draws and made hands, and reraising as a bluff is ******ed, because he never folds better.

V1 is not really that much of a concern, because he's got a wide range if he's a station. He could have top pair/two pair/overpair/draw, whatever. You're ahead of his range unless he starts to pile money into the pot, and you're folding on a fourth club anyway, so it doesn't matter whether it's V1 or V2 who has the clubs. V1's presence might make V2 play a little more straightforward too, so I think we can definitely fold to any turn bets from V2.

FWIW I´d give V2 a range something like this:

Board: 7c5c3c
Equity Win Tie
UTG 62.53% 60.85% 1.67% { 6d4d }
UTG+1 37.47% 35.80% 1.67% { 77, 55, 33, A7s, K7s, 75s, 73s, 53s, Ac8c, Kc8c, Ac6c, Kc6c, Ac4c, Kc4c, Ac2c, Kc2c, 75o, 53o, Ac8d, Ac8h, Ac8s, Ac7d, Ac7h, Ac7s, Ac6d, Ac6h, Ac6s, Ac5d, Ac5h, Ac5s, Ac4d, Ac4h, Ac4s, Ac3d, Ac3h, Ac3s, Ac2d, Ac2h, Ac2s, Kc7d, Kc7h, Kc7s, Kc6d, Kc6h, Kc6s, Kc5d, Kc5h, Kc5s, Kc4d, Kc4h, Kc4s, Kc3d, Kc3h, Kc3s, Qc7d, Qc7h, Qc7s, 7c6d, 7c6h, 7c6s }

When the turn bricks we are a big favorite:

Board: 7c5c3cJh
Equity Win Tie
UTG 75.58% 75.35% 0.23% { 6d4d }
UTG+1 24.42% 24.19% 0.23% { 77, 55, 33, A7s, K7s, 75s, 73s, 53s, Ac8c, Kc8c, Ac6c, Kc6c, Ac4c, Kc4c, Ac2c, Kc2c, 75o, 53o, Ac8d, Ac8h, Ac8s, Ac7d, Ac7h, Ac7s, Ac6d, Ac6h, Ac6s, Ac5d, Ac5h, Ac5s, Ac4d, Ac4h, Ac4s, Ac3d, Ac3h, Ac3s, Ac2d, Ac2h, Ac2s, Kc7d, Kc7h, Kc7s, Kc6d, Kc6h, Kc6s, Kc5d, Kc5h, Kc5s, Kc4d, Kc4h, Kc4s, Kc3d, Kc3h, Kc3s, Qc7d, Qc7h, Qc7s, 7c6d, 7c6h, 7c6s }

Anybody like calling OTF, donking blank turns?

Yea, once you bet-c flop, your equity does better betting again as opposed to any ck-c/ck-r lines. I'd also look to size larger here.

Like a lot of spots this is very V dependent. I'm not folding yet, esp. against the described V that I have solid reads on and who I think has a range that's heavy on draws. I'm tempted to make a small raise and lead blank turns as I think it lets us off the hook cheaper when we're drawing dead and gets more value from all those draws.

And I'm def not checking the flop.

3!/f flop smallish. Lead (b/f) non club turns. X/c non club rivers.

This is probably best. I highly doubt we get 4! semi-bluffed by a naked A, and the same should go for a set that is looking to boat up for "cheap."

I wouldn't say the flop 3! is for information per say, rather because I think we have the best hand, and until new information changes that belief, I'm going to proceed accordingly.

My head is spinning from reading this thread. I will go vomit now.

lol @ 3! flop..