No reads on anybody. Just sat down 20 min ago

Hero 250$ 1/3 live with Ah4h in bb. HJ limps. Co raise to 15$. Hero calls. HJ calls.

Flop Qh9h6h. Hero checks. Hj bets 10$, co raise to 25$, hero starts to tank and hj doesnt realize I'm still in the hand and calls, still heros action so either hero calls and his call stays or hero raises, hero?

I'll post results later, also should this be a 3bet or fold pre?

With no reads (such as HJ is a massive fish, etc.), I would just default to my normal play here and fold preflop (being OOP, without initiative, perhaps HU, with a dominated hand, readless, etc. makes calling here highly unlikely to be profitable).

SPR is a little over 5. So while we could perhaps play for stacks if the flop checks thru with a couple of big overbets it will be difficult (plus we risk a scare card ruining our action, plus we don't get to set bet size). I would mostly lean to a donk here to make playing for stacks easier (especially since it is less likely we face an air cbet here 3ways versus HU), so I'd donk like $35ish.

As played, with both people interested in the hand at this point I'd probably reraise smallish (maybe a minnish $50) and hope they can't fold before a scare card comes (especially since a check/raise in to multiple players is typically very strong).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Donking is good.

Since you didn't, ask "Can HJ fold if I raise", and when the dealer says yes, then immediately min raise.

Buy in full

As a rule of thumb its good to have 35x the raise size in effective stacks when calling with a suited ace. So to call here it would be better to have atleast 525. With your stack size i would lean towards a fold but given that your in the big blind verse late position players i dont hate a call/3bet. Definetely raise flop. You need to get the money in before they realize there beat. I would bet 75.

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Fold pre w/o reads. If you're IP and feel comfortable outplaying people post flop I don't mind a call but here it's a clear fold.

I think you have to raise here since you're OOP. It also means you need to continue on the turn as your raise will likely freeze a lot of people from betting the turn. IP I don't mind a call but with this hand you can't risk letting the turn check through - you need to figure out how to get all the money in the pot.

Fold pre. AP, donk flop as GG suggests, I might go a tad smaller tho to 25-30 and hope to get raised. AP, I like to flat the raise here and donk turn smallish hoping to get raised as it could look like a defensive bet rather than 3bet flop. I think 3betting flop really freezes all the action and since we have the Ah they aren't drawing to the nuts. There's a small chance the turn could help one of them with another heart or a second pair and allow you to play a bigger pot. Also if we call and action stays the same the pot is $120ish and we have $210 behind, should be easy to get it in over turn and river.

I did exactly what m0mmy said. Raised flop to 75$.

Tried to make it look like I was trying to get HJ to fold. Plus figure another heart or the board pairing would kill action. I wanted to build the pot asap. HJ ended up folding, CO called and has me covered. This left me with about a pot sized bet left. Turn was an irrelevant diamond. Hero shoves, co calls. River brick so hero wins. He didn't show.

Still feel as if I didn't play it right though.

Fold pre and rue the the fact that whenever you do the right thing you are punished for it.

As played, I would call on the flop, keeping the lead bettor in. You can now make a weak ish lead on the turn and it will be hard for him to fold. It now goes to the flop raiser. He could very well see you as making a blocking bet and raise again.

Anything you do is going to look really strong so sometimes you won't win a bunch more. But I think check, 3bet, shove only gets paid by monsters and idiots.

You also want to squeeze what you can out of weaker hands.

You probably get CO's stack either way but your raise blew HJ off the hand. If you flat you get at least 25 more and can still stack off between turn and river. If turn helps HJ maybe you get more than 25. Cant play much better than that.

I wanted to build a pot so on the turn I could shove with it being reasonable (little less than pot size shove). I figure if he has 2 pair or something he is trying to get to improve, and river comes but doesnt help him, he may be able to lay down whatever he has. Plus board texture could kill action.

I figured put him in the situation he can call a little less than pot size shove and action be done.. making him pay to see the river while he still has equity but is pretty far behind. If he sees river he may not want to continue putting money in. He could get his 2 pair counterfeit, another heart if he had a smaller flush, or the board could pair scaring him off (or give him the better hand).

Say me and HJ call the flop. Now there's about $115 in the pot and we have $210ish behind. We donk turn for $60, hj folds, co calls. Well now we have $235 in the pot and $150 behind. it might be hard to get all the money here depending on the river. Sure he is getting better odds, but if it's a scare card or he didn't improve he may be able to lay it down.

Just trying to give my thoughts on this so i can be corrected anywhere it may be flawed.

Also why exactly is this a fold pre when facing a late position raise. Seems like an okay hand to defend with at times. The book I've been reading says A2s+, 22+, some suited connectors/gappers and face cards are all decent to defend with.

It can be somewhat villain dependant but I figure A2s-A5s and ATs+ are hands that aren't horrible to call to keep from getting your blinds run over.

Suited wheel aces are fine hands to defend with. Honestly im not sure if theres anything you cant do with that hand in this spot. Call/fold/3bet are all viable options. Imo you played this hand pretty much perfectly. Sometimes villains are gonna fold when you have the nuts... You cant stack everybody

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Suited ace/rag are terrible OOP HU (which when you call you have to assume that it's heads up). Your RIO are bad - if you hit an A you still don't want a lot of money going in and given that you're OOP its going to be much tougher to bluff at it. Basically you whiff on the ace - the IP player can put pressure on you and force you to fold. You hit the ace you're still playing pot control and trying to get to showdown.

You're looking for 2pr+, and when you get it the money won't go in that often. If it's multi-way it's fine since your direct odds are better and it's more likely someone will get a piece when you flop like you did in this hand.

I'm okay with the above defending range on the button when a LP opens since you'll have position and can more easily take down those flops - but in the blinds its going to burn money in the long-term.

+1

I understand your logic. You're asking how to get more profit, and I'm suggesting if you flat you get the $25 from HJ and can probably still get CO to stack off over two streets instead of one. You are perhaps too worried about the action dying immediately but you admit "Turn was an irrelevant diamond". Which means they both probably call the $60, and since you didn't 3! maybe CO comes over the top and thinks you are blocker betting. If HJ called the $60 and CO didn't come over the top then the pot is $295 and your $150 river jam is totally reasonable... but even if HJ folds to the $60 your river jam still gets called unless CO was calling the jam on a draw (in which case he probably raises turn).

This kinda thinking is also similar to the set-mining "we need Yx for calling to be profitable" touted on here, and it is *far* too simplistic, imo.

First, we're OOP (makes playing and getting paid off much more difficult). Second, we're readless (is the opener an idiot who is only raising premiums in LP and will stack off every time, or is he a good player who will never stack off and is also raising a wide range so it's unlikely he'll ever have anything to stack off with). Finally, even if stacks are $525 (i.e. 35x the raise), this would produce a HU SPR of 17; your opponent would literally have to be a monster whale to stack off when our flush comes in given this SPR (where it will take 4 to 5 postflop bets to get stacks in); heck, even to 3way SPR of 11 it'll take at least 3 big bets to get in (and again this guy would have to be fairly bad in order for that to happen in position).

I always ask this simple question in these instances. Let's say you're actually 1,000,000x deep. Easy call, right? Oh, but your opponent who has position on you is Phil Ivey. Still an easy call?

Gthis"35x"conceptisverymisleading,imoG


If you're sitting in a game where the concept of preventing your blinds from getting run over (a lol idea to begin with in NL), then table change immediately.

Gifyounever"defended"yourblindsyou'dstilldoperfect lyfineG

fold pre. OOP and 5x raise and will likely be multi-way

as played raise flop to get stacks in on flop or turn

Why is everyone in a rush to get stacks in OTT, when it's mutli way and we can stack off by the river potentially against 3? Just curious.

Grunch.

I like a 3bet or fold strategy much better with this hand than a flat OOP with no initiative, no reads, and going multiway.

As played, not much you can do but call here. Afterwards, check/call turn, and most likely bombing all rivers regardless of turn.

Alternatively, you could start with a small check raise to 50, then 50 turn, and maybe 100 river or something.

This is the difficulty of playing OOP and no reads.

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Pre is marginal. If I just sat down I usually let it go but once I have reads and they are wide pre and/or poor post flop I’ll 3 bet or call.

Flat flop unless you have the image where you can raise. We aren’t deep so we have less to lose by not raising here.

In my experience people play pretty tight on these boards and the small raise is this guy trying to find out where he’s at with say KQ. Raising can’t be terrible though.

Because by the river a crapload of cards could come (ex. any heart, possible runner runner 4-to-a-straight, perhaps even board pairing cards) that will kill our action, so we'd really like to do this ASAP.

GcluelessNLnoobG

As a default, fold this preflop. It's a big raise, we don't have reads yet, we're sitting on only 83BB, we're OOP, our pot odds are mediocre, and we don't know whether we're going HU or 3way (even if we did know we should still fold). It's perfectly fine to be quite tight in this spot. If we knew CO had the ability to raise light preflop, this is a good 3bet to work in for sure.

We flop the nuts and have $235 left to bet in a pot that is ~$42 after rake. I'm leading out on flop for $25. There are plenty of hands in both players' ranges, but especially HJ's, that will check this flop down but will call a bet. Letting this flop ck through when there is so much to get value from is a disaster, and makes it far less like we can stack somebody. Betting $25 and getting called in one spot gives us an easy ~70% pot sized bets on turn and river to get AI.

As played, I think I like flatting the flop raise and donk betting pretty much every turn card. It's a pretty odd situation, I don't mind just putting in a good 3b and getting it in but neither player's hand looks particularly strong, yet.

Just curious where you came up with the 35x number in order to be profitable. Not that I disagree that it is definitely profitable at that number, but I did some math years ago and came up with 20x to be slightly +EV to break even depending on the table and how often they will stack off post.

One distinction I will make is this is for suited wheels and NOT A6-A9 suited. Those latter hands go in the muck even when I am in late position or come in for a raise in limped pots against weak opponents.

We have a 6.25% chance of making a flush by the river or 16-1. So in a static hand where we call pre-flop and there is no raising allowed post SO we see all 5 cards, we will win 15 hands and lose 1. OP calls $15, so 15x15=225 plus $15 for the one time we win we would need a $240 stack to break even if the odds hold with no variance. And this is for HU.

Now with 2 suited cards, we have a 10.94% chance of flopping a 9 out flush draw or 8.1-1. Which gives us a ~19% chance of making our flush on the turn and a ~34% of making our flush on the river. About the same odds as set mining with a pocket pair which 20X seems to be agreeable? It's what i use anyway. Again this is for HU.

We also have to figure in the times we will make a straight. With 2 connectors the odds of flopping an 8 out open ender is 10.45% or 8.6-1. Obviously with a wheel we have to make a gutshot straight or possibly flop a double belly buster. My tiny little brain says we need to use ~3% for the flop, but if we do flop the gutshot straight, we have ~8.5% on the turn and ~16% by the river.

Not going into detail when we flop 2pair+, but that certainly adds to our equity. Again this is for HU and the reason for playing suited wheels multi-way. If you are playing short stack 1/2, then by all means, raise it up and try to take it down pre or with a C-bet on the flop. I mainly play in 2/5 200+ BB poker and think that is a big mistake to make that play.

All of the above is well and good, so the hard part comes in how to figure out how many times we make the nut flush and the board pairs on the river and we lose to a full house. Or we flop 4 to the flush and have to call flop fold turn or call turn and fold the river. Guess that is my long winded way of asking my original question of where did you come up with 35x?

As far as playing this hand OOP when we get an Axx flop, I generally default to a small C/R. If your opponent(s) have a big Ace, they will let you know, but I am amazed at how often you will get folds. Obviously if multiple opponents are showing strength we can just C/F and move on to the next hand with only $15 invested in the pot.

As far as playing hands like this in general OOP, I'll save my rant on that for another post. Most of you probably quit reading 500 words ago anyway.

Lead the flop. No one will put you on the nuts and this is the street u can get the lightest calls on (or maybe someone will raise you).