Hi everyone, was playing 1/1, 9-handed

I raise 8 euros AQo (no spade) from MP, Button & SB (super loose player, I have a history with) call.

3-way to the Flop: 10,J,K all ♠️. I bet 18, Button folds, SB reraises 42. I jammed around 150 effective, and faced a snap call.

SB shows 7high flush & I lose my whole stack.

Question: Should I have just called the re-raise on the flop, or jamming there is a +EV move?
Additionally, should my play be different when opponent is stooper loose, or when is a tighter one at this spot?

Thanks for any advice.

No one bluffs on monotone boards, especially 4 way. Fold flop.

Also, there's no solvers for 4 way flops to my knowledge although Simple postlfop has a 3 way one. But we should just range check this board. Monotone boards are always better for the caller and not the raiser in a SRP.

Thanks a lot DooDoo

Yup

If you are going to bet, this size is way too big. 18 into 26? Much better to bet small with value and with bluffs on these monotone boards.

Random aside: is 8x preflop raises normal in your game?


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Hi, welcome to the forum. I do suggest in the future not to put the results in your first post and wait 24 hours before giving them. The results do bias the answers you'll get.

Jamming in this situation only insures that better hands will call and all worse hands will fold. You don't want to do that in poker.

Thanks for your answer.

Even 12x is pretty common on that table.

While we are usually ahead, when we are behind, we are drawing completely dead. Additionally when we are ahead, it's hard to get paid, even sets and two pair hands are not going to pay us in stacks if we just start spazzing out like this. Relative hand strength is a thing.

This is a nice bluffcatcher hand. I x/c this flop all day long.

My plan for future streets is to fold to significant multiway action, multistreet bets or if a 4th spade hits. Generally calling one or two streets. If no action faces us, I will bet river for value. Folding to x/r.

I don't think these two statements make much sense together. We can have a flop betting range specifically because we hardly ever get bluff raised here. I bet if you node-locked a solver to disallow villain's from having a bluff raising range it doesn't range check any more, and this hand will at least be a mixed bet.

Looks like the results biased most of the answers in this thread.

Assuming either opponent has a suited spade hand, they have around a 1% chance to flop a flush. I would just call the $42 raise as 1) there is probably little to no fold equity when you raise due to the previous action/board texture and 2) when you shove/raise, you are generally only getting called by the flushes that beat you, although I'd argue that all sets/2pairs may call trying to fill up. V can also have AsXx as well and follow the same line.

So if you just call the $42, you can safely fold on all /paired board turns as Vs semi-bluffs flushed up/likely hands that raised you filled up, you may also have more reassurance that V did certainly flop a flush when he shoves the turn (some Vs may check a non- turn as their semibluff didn't flush up).

No bluff raises on this sort of flop is an exaggeration. But in general you won't be doing well against the raise. Against a generic opponent I would consider anything other then semi-bluffs and flopped flushes to be too unlikely to worry about. The semi-bluffs will mostly be hands with As or Qs so your barely ahead or drawing dead.

It would help to know how loose and how aggressive villain is but it doesn't make a huge difference in this situation. It's already so bad for you that you need to be convinced villain has some air bluffs in his range to continue. Even if villain is playing garbage as long as he has one spade he has better then 33% chance in winning. Factor in the possibility that he can have a good hand and that you can be drawing dead and the situation is just terribly bad.

This is a very common error. We don't want the probability of a three spade flop given that villin has two spades. We want the probability villain has two spades given a 3 spade flop. Considering we don't hold any spades, the latter is 4% if villain is playing any two cards. Realistically a bit higher since suited hands get played more. You can play around with ranges yourself if you have Equilab (it's free). But that still doesn't consider that there are two villains in the hand. If each villain has a 6% chance of having flopped a flush, the total probability, ignoring removal effects, would be about 12%. 12% of the time, we are completely drawing dead before anyone even decides to bet. It gets worse as ranges narrow.

I'd still bet though. I think it's just a fold to the raise. You really want a re-draw to continue here.

Thanks for the correction browni, my mistake.

Thanks for your answer. Re-draw to continue makes total sense at this point. Probably I took the wrong road with re-raising, jamming there, but it was really depending on this particular opponent, so I agree more with your line to bet and fold to re-raise.

Lots of V’s overplay hands though at LLSNL so I don’t think it’s egregious.

That being said, probably still a fold lol.

GII with a spade.

Yeah, checking flop is best imo. People have a hard time understanding why and think it’s too FPS to check with a hand this “good” when V’s will continue wide.

But you’re going to run into a flopped flush *way* more often than you expect 4 ways with the affinity people have for suited cards.

It's higher EV to play pure strategies OTF in multiway pots against non fish so as not to split the game tree and make mistakes later on. I'd rather play pure bet/pure check here and then mix OTT/OTR to simplify for us.

Also, we aren't getting 3 streets here anyways so we need to check somewhere. The flop is the most logical spot to check, especially 4 way.

Of course this is all theoretical. If you want to have a betting range vs mouth breathers to exploit them - that could be good too.

I considered whether I'd take a shot at hero with AsX here and I think I wouldn't because at 1/1 people are calling with lots of silliness like two pair or pair + oesd.

It's live 1|1. 100% of your opponents will be fish.

I hardly ever play mixed strategies live on any street. I might not play a hand the same way every time, but I don't consider that mixing, just adapting to gameflow and different villain tendencies (or not knowing wtf I'm doing, lol). I think AQ is fine as a pure bet vs. opponents who don't have balanced continuing ranges, either for calling or raising. Also you actually can get three streets here on brick runouts in practice. If I thought you couldn't then perhaps I'd rather check as well.

And you made a mistake in your first reply which everyone else has seemed to run with, including me. We're 3-ways, not 4.