The game was in Parq poker room in Vancouver. I 3 bet shoved the flop for 315 more. The opponent tanked for 3-4 minutes and folded.

Make note that in this case we only made ~$160 overall, or just over 5:1 on what we put in preflop (not remotely close to setmining odds). Given that we probably weren't going to continue having not flopped a set (even in the times we were ahead of a whiffed AK/etc.), and given that we sometimes lose our stack when flopping a set (a Villain with an overpair here will still suck out 8% of the time if he calls or sometimes set-over-set us or go runner runner straight or whatever), and sometimes his KK sees a A6x flop and loses very little, etc. overall this kinda shows how difficult it is to make money with small pairs in EP OOP.

GcluelessNLnoobG

His postflop line makes his preflop play look brilliant. Makes alot more if he doesn't take the absolute nut low line, open shoving flop is better than this line.

Yeah, the postflop line didn't help things either. And given how his opponent looks like he was able to outplay him vastly postflop, it's even less likely small pocket pairs (or any speculative hand for that matter) are going to be profitable for him in EP (where it is hard to be profitable even for good players, especially if opponents are semi-competent).

GnolongerplaysspeculativehandsinEPG

lol

getting 3:1 direct odds and over 20:1 implied odds is too steep of a price to try to set mine here?

ugh.

I like checking flop compare to leading for these reasons

- checking allows CO to cbet with all his bluffs as well as value hands, money that we can’t make when we lead. CO is not going to spazz raise AK with button still behind. If he did, he would bet when checked to anyways.
- if Co checks, button will bet all his pairs, including 33-55 that will fold if we bet. Also button will bet his AK AQ / air some of the time when CO checks.
- if we bet and CO raise, button might get away with his pairs that would have called CO’s CBet.
Example 1. Co has AA, button has 77-jj. We check CO bets, button calls almost always. But if we bet flop, CO raises with AA, button now can fold all his 77-99 hands and might fold 1010-QQ too
Example 2. We bet flop and CO raises with AK spazz, button can still fold all his pairs, we call and CO likely shutsdown, we lose value from pairs that button had

- if we check and both CO and Button checks with their overcards, we allow them to catch up and make more money on turn and river
- even in the rare case that we check, CO checks his AA to induce button, and button also checks. We CAN still get max value from AA by betting pot on the turn, setting up pot size all in on river.
- suited connectors that CO 3bet might cbet this flop aswell, very good flop to cbet. Hands like 78s with bd flush draws. Hands that would fold to our lead. These hands can pick up a lot of equity on turns even if they both check and we can get value from them on turns.

Example: action checks through
Turn is 5 bringing bd flush. We bet. Now 78s is calling and drawing with reverse implied odds, flush draws also calling with reverse odds.
Same can be said with 9.
Turn 7 gives 89s the same draw
Turn 8 gives 910s a gutshot (+possibly flush draw)
Turn 10 gives 78s, 89s gutshot (+possibly flush draw)
ALL these draws are DRAWING DEAD, check and allow them to come.
JQKA gives all overcards good pairs on a very dry board.

***
As played I would flat the 3bet from button always. It is a 226r flop
There is basically very few bad action killer turns, if any. Even an A is not really an action killer. What Ax type hands do we bet out on the flop with and call a raise besides A6s? Which is only 3combo, even less depending on the suit of the turn A. Same can be said with K, Q even if button had JJ. We actually don’t even have K6 or Q6s, so we have 0 K, Q in our bet calling range

a) Just because we don’t give them a chance to reraise, does not mean we lose value from these hands. If their hand is strong enough to reraise, it is strong enough to bet mutiple streets, which given SPR, stacks will go in.

b) this can’t be proven, how do u know he would bet less than 40?? We are betting 40 into 96 (after rake) and u are saying with certainty that they would bet less than 40..

c) again, very false, I would happilly bet 3 streets with my JJ + here. What better flop can we ask for to tripple barrel for value with over pairs if we were Co? The trip 22 is so good as only 2 combos of A2s are available here, and if we have AA it possibly will be even less depending on suits.

d) It’s true we can’t be bluffing later if we check call, but same holds true for when we bet, bet into a 3bettor and cold caller. What are we bluffing with here that double barrels?

We called 23 more pre, not 30. and we made the stone minimum possible here when we flop a set. The point of this thread shouldn’t be to fold pre, but rather to take our time and not just monkey shove when we flop the nuts.

So if hadda open raised to 99% of our stack, then got raised for the 1% remaining (where we clearly have setmining odds), all's well? I'm commenting on what we ended up getting in preflop; the fact that the second play preflop might be profitable (it's debatable in this case) doesn't change that our overall preflop play likely wasn't.

And yeah, Hero did not play it well postflop, no doubt. But if you think we have an automatic call here even if we play well due to 20:1 IO or whatever, it's not that simple. We're OOP which makes getting paid off much more harder (where eventually we might be forced to initiate the action which will look quite strong, as opposed to perhaps running the action when checked to which will look far less strong). There's also a bunch of situations where we don't get stacks (vs KK on A6x flops and similar for other big pairs when an overpair falls). Plus there's times he has AK and whiffs and doesn't play for stacks. And on top of all that there are the times we flop our set and end up losing our stack anyways.

My original post was that thanks to the small SPR (where it will be trivial to get in stacks postflop) and the likelihood he actually has a big hand he'll have trouble folding (apart from the KK vs A6x flops) and given the 20:1 IO at this point that it is likely profitable. But it's hardly going to be hugely profitable, and the better our opponent / the worse we play, it quickly starts entering unprofitable territory.

Gfoldpre,seriouslyG

Fold pre. Once V raised flop, I would just call. 3bet is too strong and I do believe you've managed to get V to fold something like JJ. OTT I would lead smaller like 1/4 pot if low card comes and check if high card comes. I am trying to convince V that I have something like 77-99, want to get to showdown by block betting.