2c is already out there. And I'd bet all the money in my bank account the villain isn't 4bet shoving with AcXx or two pair here.. Idk what 2 pair combo he could even have except some weird off chance he called a raise with 23.. Best case scenario is he has a set and we're 65% and off to the races or MAYBE JcJx.

A is exactly what atleast one villan probably has imo.

Cool - you play poker for action. I play poker with the goal of making money. Your advice has been pretty bad thus far, too.

You're talking absolute strength - we flopped a flush, put our stack in. The fact that it is so multi way makes our hand less strong relatively.

What games do you guys play in where loose/passive fish are 4-bet shoving over a raise and reraise and don't have the nuts? The op's read is that he calls with draws.

This hand isn't even really that difficult if you trust your reads. There is a lot of first level thinking going on though.

Seems fairly absurd to fold this?? Against aggro Vs I think I might either lead the flop and call a raise or just call the 3bet. You can certainly be behind here but I think V has a set or an overpair with a club way more often than a flopped flush.

I'm not folding

You don't think villain would reraise preflop with JJ QQ KK AA? That's the part I don't understand about the "overpair with a club" you don't think he's reraising QQ+? JJ is the only one that I guess makes a little sense?

His range is likely sets (we're 65% favorite) or flushes (we obviously have no equity).

But idk what games people play in where a raise, reraise, rereraise, shove isn't the nuts or an almost nut hand.

Let me rephrase the 'I would rather watch paint dry' statement. But I do not see how t anyone in there right mind seeing a 6-7 way pot can even justify a fold here. It is basically saying the only time you are playing a pot here is when you are reraising pre. Do you have a calling range here? Or are you strictly looking to squeeze premium holdings?

Also, yes we are drawing near dead if he has flush but getting these odds do you really think sets and other combo Ac make up less than 20% of his range?

why are you emphasizing 6-7 way pot? You realize the more people that enter increases the chances of someone having hands like Q3 K9cc, 106cc, J5 sooted etc?

im talking pre

gotta go with it as played, cold calling is an option, but once we 3b we can't fold, as that would be basically turning a flopped flush into a bluff...gotta go with it as played... get your rebuy ready

Once we raise flop were commited, I would get the rebuy ready though.

maybe to much argument from my side of the table. But this is all I am trying to say.

It's not really a bad thing to be tight from the blinds, not sure why you seem to think it is. I call j10s+, AQs, 22+. Squeezing something like AJs, AJo+, Aka, jj+, and a few random AXs and KXs as a bluff.

Dude, as played he *might* show up with top/mid set, but I think that is a reach. Loose *passive* players don't bet/4bet shove a naked nut flush draw over a raise and a cold 3b.

I don't know how you keep saying he is shipping a naked Ac, when nothing in the op says he plays draws aggressively, in fact, it says the exact opposite.

On the flop before we put in that $85 dollar raise we only have %5 of our stack invested, that is a time where I would just fold.

might have villians confused?

I'm not really sure what you're reading.truthfully.

Results?

V1 showed A5

I was thinking of leading this flop but I wanted to get stacks in and I thought with the amount of people in the hand I could easily get a check/raise in.

For those saying to flat the 3bet, wouldn't we be giving V1 odds to hands with A or K to call behind and draw? That's why I decided to raise. Should I then raise small and fold to a 4bet? That's the general consensus I'm getting.

Leading also seams good, but are we folding if V1 raises our lead? Doesn't seem like a good line to bet/fold a flopped flush. So do we bet/call and play out of position? Folding to more clubs and calling down safe turn/rivers? Seems like we get stacked that way too.

Okay, so V1 had the unbeatable nuts (relative to your hand of course) and this is not a surprise to anybody here.

However, I am still pretty confident that once you decide to check/3b, which is obviously a suboptimal play (no offense), you can't, especially with how big you decided to go, decide to fold there. Somebody else can do the math (I'm at my "real" job, sigh), but given how often you need to be live, and the price you are getting to once he comes over the top, I do not think it is a foregone conclusion that you aren't getting the right price.

If it turns out you once you're drawing dead 90% of the time here it becomes wildly unprofitable for you to continue, then maybe it is the case that folding to the 4b after you decide to c/3b is actually optimal.

The most important thing for you to take away from this hand, and this is a lesson that it takes way too long for everybody to learn (myself, and many other posters on this board I'm sure) is that you need to have a plan whenever you make a decision at any point in any hand. I'm not saying you need to mentally create a decision tree before you even see your cards (probably wouldn't hurt, a little mentally labor intensive though) BUT when you are evaluating your options on this flop you need to know how you are going to continue once you 3b.

Like I said, I think the c/3b is a suboptimal line on this flop, undoubtedly, but if you had decided "okay, I'm going to 3b large here to find out where I'm at and if he comes over the top I will conclude that I am probably drawing dead and fold" then it's much better than "Well, I have five cards of one suit, and that's a good hand so I'm going to put a bunch of money into the pot right now and I have no clue what I'll do based on what my opponent does".

It looks like people are still undecided about what to do facing the 4b and once the numbers are run and we know how often you need to be drawing dead to make it unprofitable then we can try and answer that question with more accuracy. If nobody else performs these calculations I'll do it later when I get out of work.

And, if going forward you have a plan more often (read: almost always) then this $105 lesson will pay for itself more times than you can count. Another thread touched on this, but don't keep making the same mistake. You suffered the consequences once, in this hand, going forward don't do it again.

I shouldn't assume that you didn't have a plan in this particular spot, it's very likely that your plan was to 3b and go with it and you knew that and the reason that you created this post was to get feedback on your plan. If that was the case, then disregard the quoted portion above.

The reason I said what I said is because for the longest time I wouldn't make a plan while playing a hand and would just click buttons, more or less. Perhaps I was projecting my own tendencies onto you, which would not be helpful. If that's the case, I apologize.

Serious question - your read was that v1 was loose passive and likes to chase draws, why do you then give him credit for 4betting two people that raised him?

I had to grunch after reading the first two pages. A lot of players are commenting who don't actually play enough to have experience in these spots. I think the raise on the flop is terrible. It's either a flat or even close to a fold. The raise and raise sizing on the flop serves no purpose at all except to guarantee you are going to lose your money.

This is as close to a c/f flush on the flop as you can get. If you can't stomach that, just call. To think that people actually show up here with just the ace of clubs is not within my realm of experience after months of non stop live poker. You are up against a combination of made better flushes and sets that can draw out and Ax almost never actually shows up and is strongly weighted out by blockers anyway.

So as played, once you c/3b, you would advocate a fold to a shove?

My issue was that after I had put in 85 I wouldn't want to fold for 105 more, or whatever it was.

And one other thing, V led out on this flop, then someone else basically clicked it back and hero 3b really large...if V led out with naked A (which I think happens occasionally) what do you think he would do facing a raise and a reraise? Fold almost always, and occasionally call? He's never coming over the top thinking he's got 9 outs to the nuts if the board doesn't pair?

the main reason why your sizing is pretty bad even if you do raise, you are committed in a spot where your showdown value is actually super thin

do not like the raise at all because you are first to act on the next street and you actually need to peel a card in spot where you are never that far ahead

this is kind of interesting tho because it's vs two players, if you had bet and been iso-ed by one it's a totally different story, it's actually the combination of the two hands that you are behind, and when you are behind, it's by a lot, and when you are ahead, it's not by much.

This dude gets it.