1/3 no-limit

Hero (350) - late 20's image of rec player. first time playing at this venue. Has been playing for about 3 hrs and is playing tight/solid with no big hands yet. has taken turns winning $ off V1

V1 (~125) - aggrodonk playing every hand (raising most) and on 5th or 6th buy in

V2 (~250) - 20's rec player. Got sucked out on one hand for his stack but otherwise playing ok, nothing special

V1 in UTG limps

V2 limps in EP

Hero has JT and limps in MP

Several other players limp / blinds etc and it is 7 way to the flop

Flop ($21)

862

Blinds, V1, V2 check

Hero bets out $25

Folds around to V1 and V2 who call

Turn (96 less rake) 4

V1 shoves for ~100

V2 shoves for ~225

Hero?

My thinking-

PF - getting ready to get up (actually did leave after this hand) which was probably the reason for open limping. Had made iso raises against V1 a couple previous hands but thought MW pot would be better with JTs. Expected someone in late position or one of the blinds to put in a sweetneer raise, which was the norm at this table

Flop - lots of loose flop calls at this table, wanted more money in the pot before a 4th landed

Turn - V1 has ATC. V2 wants me out with the overshove. Thought this meant less than nut flush, not naked A or A-high flush

snap-cartwheel

Over betting the flop is pretty goofy man. $20 is OK.

Don't fold.

Dude u feel like gumbling ? U could be way ahead or way behind ? Thats what you get when you play limped pot.

Are we missing something? Based on your reads, nothing else to do but to snap and toss the dealer two white chips.

if you dont snap call here, you will be accused for slow rolling for sure!

Call me nitty, but u r drawing dead my friend.

That's what I was thinking...I expect V2 to have the best hand here almost always.

I still cant understand why people go crazy with 3rd, 4th nut hands in a limped pot. Its limped pot PEOPLE !!!

It's a limped pot and it's only 4th nuts, which are good reasons to consider folding here. But, the action doesn't make sense.

Given description of players and OP profile of self, I don't think V2 can count on a bet from Hnon this board and would likely lead a flush on the flop.
If he didn't lead a flush on the flop, why would he not c/r the flop after V1 called Hs flop bet?
V1s lead on the turn makes no sense, and V2s shove is also confusing. With a big flush, why would he not flat and let H over call?

I'm calling here and expecting to see a small straight or two pair from V1 and a small flush or set from V2. I know that their ranges are wider than that, but fourth nuts, with this action and V descriptions, and that neither of them is deep stacked, I'm calling.
If H had a bigger stack AND V2 had him covered, then I'd think about the big lay down but since both have relatively --- less than 100bb stacks -- and H has them covered, gii.

V2 has the nuts here very often IMO. What does the Flop overbet from Hero mean to the table?

Granted V2 shove is 'bad' but he really doesn't have a choice to leave 'only' $125 behind. Players who have been sucked out on don't wait around to be sucked out on again, they make you pay to draw against strong hands. And that doesn't mean weak flush, he doesn't want to see the board pair IMO.

If V1 is winner, nice hand. But you have to win the side pot first before you can rake in the main. It would be nice to know the timing of the calls. The Flop overbet could mean almost anything, except flush, in some V minds. That comes down to your image in V2's mind .. forget V1.

1) When is Hero leaving? $50/hour so far not too bad ..
2) Is Hero bank-rolled for this big swing?
3) Is Hero going to tilt if he loses?

In a limped pot that just 'explodes' all of a sudden I have started to back away a bit more lately. Sometimes you do fold winners, but I might want to keep my stack the size it is at this table rather than start over after 3 hours of solid play.

This is not AA/KK/QQ with a diamond (no PF raise), right? Was V2 UTG or other? Why would V2 shove into you when you showed so much aggression OTF without a made hand? V2 is not going to raise Flop 'ever' and is 'happy' with V1's shove, but doesn't want Hero to suck out without paying for it IMO.

Look for AQ/KQ/A9/K9 flushes here .. possibly 97/57 flushes, but I am going to give V2 some credit here and take a shove for what it is at 1-2 ... 'nuts'. GL

I'm cool with overlimping here and seeing a nice multiway pot with position on a lot of the field with a nice multiway hand.

There's a saying of "don't go broke in a limped pot". So I pick who I'm cool with going broke against here and who I'm not. The aggrodonk only started the hand with 42bbs and could easily have any piece of cheese to get aggro with, so on this flop, I'm going broke against him unless another diamond comes off. V2 is twice as deep and doesn't seem as idiotic, and there just ain't that many worse flushes he could have flopped, so my plan is to not go broke against him.

I'm not sure how I feel about the big flop overbet. With a more nuttish hand, I'd be totally cool with this. But in a limped pot where I'm probably only planning on going broke versus one guy, I think I'm not looking to build too huge of a pot too quickly here, plus it will obviously be super easy to dump our hand if a 4th diamond comes. I probably only bet $15.

Weird spot on the turn. I woulda snap called V1's shove. But now that V2 is involved, it gets a lot trickier. But would V2 shove the nuts here, or even the second nuts, to blow us out of the pot? Perhaps he does shove the K/Q flush to make sure we don't suck out? And I guess he does shove smaller flushes, but there really shouldn't be that many smaller flushes? And could he have a mediocre hand (like a set / two pair) and just trying to isolate the aggrodonk? Although I agree with your reasoning on V2's possible thinking here, in the end, it comes down to my initial plan, which was to no go broke in a limped pot to V2 (and to treat his stack committing bet on a big street with us still to react behind him with respect). Therefore, I follow thru with that plan and fold.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Not sure I'm liking this against V2. I just fold and leave and never show my hand.

Not sure why you overbet the flop? Could have made them think you didn't have a flush (drawing w/ A) or had a small one. Still folding.

this should be in your raising range pre.

For me, raising preflop is all about thinning the field, and if we don't thin the field, we'd better have a backup plan of having a hand that can stand up postflop. After 2 limpers (including a guy that everyone else knows is definitely seeing the flop), I just don't think we're going to be able to do that too often from MP here and all we have is J high (plus we still have half the table still to announce their interest in the hand behind us). I'd be cooler with a raise if these were the only 2 limpers to us in LP.

GimoG

I agree with the consensus that V2 is my only concern. V1 can very easily have made his straight with 5c7s.

V2 probably doesn't have the nut flush already. He would've hollywooded or at least tanked for awhile, in that case. So he either has the Ad, a non-nut flush, or a set that he's desperately trying to protect against flush draws. The non-nut flushes concern me, since Kdxd and Qdxd are easily in his range. But I need a stronger read on him to confidently lay this down. Does he like to play disconnected, suited kings and queens (He can't have K10, KJ, Q10, QJ)? Does he raise KQsuited? Does he limp small pocket pairs?

No shame in folding here -- we're drawing dead plenty of time -- but this is a spot where V2 should be feeling a lot of stress. Take some time to try and get a physical read, use that to influence your decision.

This limped pot nonsense needs to be addressed. Who cares it is a limped pot? If we have the equity to call vs our opponents' ranges then you call. Way to many people approach limped pots like the nittiest of nits. How does this hand change with a raise pre and equivalently larger stacks? Imo, this is even more of a call than in a raised pot because V2 has more two pair and more small flushes and V1 has way more bare Ad. Saying that he should fold because it is a limped pot is sillier than saying he should fold because his chips are in a rack.

You have the best hand here 90% of the time. Easy peazy imo. V2 has all kinds of stuff in his range. He could be as light as A8 in my experience. People play their made hands really hard on a monotone flop. They almost never put someone on a flopped flush, but they know they will be screwed by a four flush.

Villain has worse flushes, better flushes and hands that we have drawing dead in his range. This is a call all day.

It's thinking like this that makes setmining so profitable at these stakes. There is a huge difference going broke here in a limped pot versus a raised pot because the risk/reward is drastically different, plus the implied odds are drastically different.

In a limped pot, we just gave V2 implied odds of 83:1 to stack us. 83:1, OMG! Those are insane implied odds; we simply can't go stacking off all the time here with the worse hand giving those odds. Will we fold the best hand some of the time? Sure, but for most part this will be a smallish mistake. The SPR on the flop is a fairly large 13, indicating that the risk (our stack) versus the reward (the piddly amount in the pot on the flop) indicates that we shouldn't automatically be in stack off mode. Obviously this is opponent / action dependent, which is why we're quite comfortable stacking off versus aggrotard V1, but we certainly shouldn't feel nearly as comfortable stacking off versus V2 given this action and his description (none of which indicates he is willing to get in 83bb stacks lightly in a limped pot with a draw or weakish hand).

If we went to a raised pot, things change drastically. Let's say we raise to $20 and both V1 and V2 call (a very reasonable result). We now gave V2 implied odds of a mere 12.5:1 to stack us, not even remotely close to the insane odds we gave him in a limped pot. And the SPR is now a very small ~4, which means the risk (our stack, which is only 4 times the size of the pot) is very much worth the reward (a big pot). If V2 coolered us here, then a very much more reasonable stack off postflop.

On top of all that, a limped pot usually means very multiway, which means the likelihood of someone actually having a hand better than us increases, plus the chances of someone bluffing decreases (as opposed to a raised pot which has thinned the field).

I'll agree that this decision is not an easy one. We do have the 4th nuts after all, and that's a pretty strong hand on this board. But we saw V2 overcall a huge bet on the flop, and now facing a shove (albeit from an aggrotard) he's decided his hand is good enough to ship, with us (the flop overbetter) still to react behind him. I don't think it's a fistpump either way, but I do lean towards a fold, especially having invested very little in this pot.

GimoG

Yes, I understand SPR. That's why I said "equivalently larger stacks." Ie. if we raise to 3bb and are 3x as deep.

My point is that you must construct ranges for the Villains and play accordingly regardless of whether the pot is limped or not. I think we can agree on that.

If you disagree with my opinion that he has a lot of worse hands in his range then that's fine. Maybe it's a difference in where we play. In my games, people play made hands very very hard on monotone flops. If you think he only has Q high flushes or better then go ahead and fold. Personnally, I think that range is very innaccurate for a fairly random rec player.

Edit: I don't think 1/2 players see a $25 bet into a $21 pot as a "huge" bet. They don't even know how much is in the pot. In terms of the absolute money value, $20 and $25 are pretty much the same for most players imo. I don't think the ranges really change.

Also, the amount of money invested is totally irrelevant and is another common logical flaw imo. Is your call +ev right now? That is the only thing that matters.

You tipping before the river? BALLA.

Yep, this is a snapper dapper call.

orsonwells.gif - well, except for the last part. Most LLSNL players love to make teh expert sloplayz on the flop with monsters so we could be drawing dead, but most of the time this is a set or a lower flush.

Thats how all the sh*** OMC regs make a living. Risk $2 to make 200. It is way more likely that someone has weak Axs in limped pot than say >5bb raised pot. Wonder if some of the posters even play 1/2 live. Its 1/2 live people !!!

It's also more likely the aggro donk is spazzing and the other villain is Iso'ing. Why would V2 shove the nut flush?

In my experience at 1/2 people call with suited Aces anyway. Plus as I stated, bc it's limped there are more hands in his range that we beat as well.


Also, just wanna clarify that I'm not saying A8 is def in his range, just saying I have seen someone be that light.