I think it's fair to say the "don't go broke in a limped pot rule" is talking about huge SPR pots. I totally agree that if we happen to go the same amount of ways here creating the exact same SPR in a raised pot that the situation is identical (but that example would also have to assume everyone is playing 600+ bbs deep).

I also absolutely agree that players will see no difference in a $15 vs $25 bet here (and will call versus fold the exact same percentage of time). The only reason I bet less is because I'm not willing to stack off against certain stacks, so I'm cool with keeping the pot smaller until I find out who is interested in the hand.

In the end, the decision here will come down to what we think of V2. Most villains at this level are (a) passive and (b) MUBSy, and yet he just shipped the turn. How many times have we heard players say "I can't bet my set/straight, there was a flush out there?". To me, his most likely range of hands is Axdd/Kxdd/Qxdd versus 97dd/75dd/54dd/43dd (and even some of those latter ones fall into the "I can't bet my baby flush, you could have a bigger one!"). Sets *typically* just call and try to hit their fullhouse on this board (again, see passive / MUBSy). 75o (straight) is a possibility. And if he's doing this with the naked A/K flush draw well, ok, he's just not. So I think overall, we're crushed by his range. But I'm MUBSy like that.

GimoG

Limped pot = larger range of hands ... including Arag/Krag suited .. which we are crushed by right now. In a raised pot I think we narrow V2 flush hands down to 'only' those that beat us since they have to be in the raise calling range.

The 'good' question is does the percentage of hands that beat us go up or down in a limped pot v raised pot?

Anytime there is a huge swing in the hand action from one street to the next I look at how my (Hero) image is viewed. OTF $20 sends the same message that $25 does ... but what is that message to the table based on Hero image. If anything but a flush, then Hero needs to call here more often. But when OPs put specific information in their posts I pay attention to it. V2 got sucked out on previously, therefore he wants to make sure that people pay to suck out on him, he protects 'his' pot.

If we can reasonably put some sets in there then this becomes a call more often. But I am looking at the total session so far and going forward. Hero has a good thing going here and to go negitive in the session can stink depending on Hero's intentions for playing. I guess I always assume that I will have another (better) spot to get those chips.

With a huge bankroll, its a call. But with that not being the case at 1-2 most of the time, I can find a fold here quite often. Game time read ... GL

I actually just stoved the range above that I gave and was shocked at what a difference there was between including 75o in his range vs not. We're a 86:14 dog not including 75o, but as soon as we include it, we're 50:50 (if I've stoved things correctly). And things obviously get quite a lot better if we include sets, A/K x draw, a wider worse flush range, and just random spaz.

GreallyreallyreallydependsonwhatwethinkofopponentG

I think you are forgetting a very important characteristic of rec players. They are desperate to protect their hands. Think about those spots where villains say the dumb stuff your talking about. It is almost always on the river. Before the river, their first priority with what they see as a strong hand is protection imo.

There might be monsters under your bed, but there is also a whole lotta cash. Gotta risk it imo.

I'd almost never consider hero folding here after flopping a J-high flush 83BB deep.

V would have to be a certified OMC and tell-box signalling strength.

I'm also not so worried about V2. Why would he re-shove with the nuts? He might, but he has other hands, too.

I think V's are wide enough and not only nutted, and we have an incredibly strong hand.

I'd snap call. We lose sometimes, but I think we have plenty of equity vs. ranges.

If V2 is a thinking player given V1's dynamic, it could widen his range here. I'm not saying folding is bad, but V2, again if he's thinking, could show up with sets or combo draw here.

I see people shove the A high flush all the time, before someone can make a boat against them. Especially when their young 20's on a second buyin. 7-ways to the flop I couldn't call this, myself.

Unless this is a large portion of your BR its a fist pump shove

This is why my limps are with weak suited Ax and some suited Kx. And suited Qx and Jx are raises. I'm the beneficiary of the RIO spots with Ax/Kx.

I would have shoved here with the nut flush. If V2 just calls, there is ~$300 in the pot and he has only $125 left. Hero's overbet on the flop looks like a set and maybe a small flush, which V2 probably doesn't think Hero will fold, anyway. Plus, a paired river or another diamond will kill V2's action (and he knows he has to call the paired board).

Then we should only be getting called by flushes. Against a range of, any flush, this is not a shove; it's a fold.

I don't understand? I mean as the villain I would have shoved with the nut flush. As hero, I fold (as I wrote earlier).

Given the limped pot, I think v2 has a significant amount of Ax/Kx/Qx disconnected suited hands that have us drawing dead. I see all kinds of junk hands like that in raised pots, so it's a fair assumption there are even more in a limped pot. You can construct a range to make this a decent call, but I think it's pretty unrealistic honestly. Live poker tends to be what it is at these stakes, so I'd trust my gut that he's got the goods and fold.

Also, since v2 knows he's going to show his hand I think it significantly decreases the amount of semi bluffs he will have.

Sent from my SM-G900V using 2+2 Forums

Sorry, I misunderstood.

I think it's crazy that everyone (or anyone) thinks we're likely to be ahead here.

So... turn action

4 lands

donkey casually puts remaining chips in (he does this alot)

V2 snap shoves

Hero considers V2s holdings as flushes, and as lots of ppl pointed out, that is weighted towards Ax Kx and Qx. He had that look like he totally thought he was good.

hero folds.

River comes off some non-diamond, no board pair.

donkey mumbles something about a set, looking hurt and confused, doesn't show.

V2 shows K8

Think you mean K9

K rag diamonds. Dont remember fer sure at this point.

Get it in but not loving it

I can't get pass you having a rec player image.. How?

I'm calling this shove >95% of the time against these player types barring some type of read. IF I had a read that Villian 2 was playing really tight or he was Old Man Coffee I probably fold. But, I'm very happy to get it in. That sucks if you got coolered to a higher flush, but if you got your money in every time in this exact situation you would be +EV.

idk.. Everyone here just describes themselves as 'playing pretty TAG' or 'thinking LAG style'. I think since we all know TAG and whatever thinking LAG means is the way good players should play then everyone just thinks all the donks at the table view them as TAGs or thinking LAGs. Bad players probably don't even notice these things unless you make a spectacle or are constantly running them over.

Hero doesn't smell like weed, wear a hoodie, or have noise-cancelling headphones. Dresses pretty normal, doesn't live at the cardroom, and tries to be generally unassuming at table. bottom line is that since i have a job which is much more important to me than poker, and play within my $ means, i really am a rec player. Don't think that should mean that i dont want to clobber everyone else at the table and be a long-term winner.

Not so sure about this. I consider the 28$ loss a blessing in a flush over flush hand. I am not a weak tight player by any means, and have stacked myself plenty. Didn't feel good to be folding a flush to bad players. Still not sure if this was a good or bad fold in the long term perspective, but seems like a lot of ppl itt also have the heebie jeebies about being overflushed in this situation.

Did anyone advocating a call actually work out the flush combos V2 could have in this hand? This is such an easy fold because of the board texture. The only weaker flushes he could have are 43d,53d,54d,74d,75d,97d. He could have every single available suited Ace other than AK and MAYBE AQ, but plenty of people don't raise AQ. If he's playing 74d and 34d he's certainly playing Q9d and K9d. Not to mention that while V1 may be over aggressive, we're not happy to have him in the hand either.

If he has a lower flush it makes it all the more certain that V2 has us crushed with a big flush. If he has a set, the times V2 shows up with a lower flush are marred by us losing to V1 pairing the board. He can also show up with offsuit Kings and Aces and beat us some of the time by hitting another diamond. Even without considering him though we are always crushed by V2's range.

It's not that we have heebie jeebies about being overflushed, it's that there are so few ways, given the action, flop and cards in your hand, that you could be overflushing someone else.