Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Live Low-stakes NL Discussion of up to 3/5 live no-limit, pot-limit and spread-limit Texas Hold'em poker games, situations and strategies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-18-2018, 05:03 PM   #1
YellowHeart
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 18
Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

This is a hand I played live at a local card table with 1/1/2 stakes ($1 button) with $5 rake.

After a 5bb ($10) raise from early position (V1), 3 people (V2,V3,V4) flat from behind.

Hero flats the CO with 7s5s, wanting to see a flop. Button folds. SB folds. BB flats.

Flop ($57): 3s4s8s

BB checks. V1 c-bets $15, V2 calls, V3 and V4 fold. Hero raises to $40. BB folds, V1 folds, V2 calls.

Turn ($152): 5o

V2 leads out for $20. I shove for $95 more ($115 total). V2 (has me covered) waits about a minute before making his decision.

What do you guys think of this hand? There are few better flops for my hand than a flush with a gutter to a straight flush. As for V2, he's an older talkative gentleman with imperfect English that has been trying to get people to straddle and play pots all night. So far I had seen him show down primarily premium hands (TPTK, two pair, etc.) as well as him revealing a missed flush draw to a river bet. Generally, he has been playing a lot of pots and has a lot of chips.

On the other hand, this was a pot that went 6 ways to the flop with little going on other than the 3 card flush. So there is a higher than normal chance for other flushes, which will probably beat my 7-high flush.


As a result, I am uncertain about my play and have a couple of questions:

1. Preflop: I'm in the CO facing a large open-raise (was standard for this table though) and several cold calls. I'm getting a great price to see the flop and in my mind my hand was too weak to 3-bet. Did I make the right play to just flat? The button was playing pretty tight and there was a pro playing a wide range in the BB.

2. Flop: Obviously it's a scary board. There were two people in front of me that could have been drawing to a better flush as well as BB behind, so I raise to build the pot and deny equity with what I think is the best hand. I think this play made sense but with this many people to the flop, I'm not certain.

3. Turn: V2 didn't raise the original flop or my re-raise, so in my mind it is unlikely that he has a completed flush. V2 could have a set, made a straight on the turn, or had some nut flush draws and/or flush draws with a pair, that could all conceivably take the line he has in addition to the made flush.

I think in hindsight, I think I turned my great hand into a bluff where I'm only getting called with better. All other made flushes beat mine except 6h2h (one combination that might fold pre-flop), and there are very few combinations of those hands that fold. The 6h for the straight flush is a one-outer against those hands which they could conceivably be holding themselves. A set might call, but I might be able to get it in on the river anyways. I have too much equity against a flush draw to want to get them to fold. Straights are very low probability. A 5 completing a straight on that board would mean that V2 called an EP open, c-bet, and flop re-raise with only a gutshot. Maybe A2 with the As or 76 with the 6s is possible here. Two pair or TPTK, over pairs without a flush draw are probably folding when they might bet again on the river as long as another spade doesn't come.

Now the question is, does it make more sense in this position to flat or choose a smaller raise size? I'm leaning towards flatting in this position due to stack sizes, but if I had been deeper (say, $200 behind rather than $115), would it have made sense to raise somewhere in the $60 range with the intention of folding to a shove? How would you interpret him leading into me with a 1/8 pot bet?

Spoiler:

Last edited by YellowHeart; 07-18-2018 at 05:31 PM.
YellowHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 05:19 PM   #2
NittyOldMan1
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 561
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

you need to fold this hand preflop because your stack is too small to profitably play this hand after a raise.

as played you got coolered. it happens. nothing you can do.
NittyOldMan1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 05:27 PM   #3
YellowHeart
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 18
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
you need to fold this hand preflop because your stack is too small to profitably play this hand after a raise.
The table was incredibly soft with lots of limping and dead money folding by the flop. I figured I was in position to most players and getting a good price to see a flop-- would it have made more sense to make the same play from the button?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
as played you got coolered. it happens. nothing you can do.
That's comforting to hear for sure. I want to make sure I'm not missing an opportunity for a learning experience though.
YellowHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 05:49 PM   #4
Minatorr
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 5,226
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

FOLD PRE
Minatorr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 05:53 PM   #5
NittyOldMan1
grinder
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 561
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowHeart View Post
The table was incredibly soft with lots of limping and dead money folding by the flop. I figured I was in position to most players and getting a good price to see a flop-- would it have made more sense to make the same play from the button?

.
your stack size right now is constructed for overpairs and top pair hands. small pp's are probably ok too to play here because they are so well disguised so its easy to stack people.

for stuff like 75s, get your stack to like 30x the preflop raise size and then you can start calling with these types of hands, because your main value with suited connectors is getting people to fold the flop when you have a flush draw/straight draw (actually hitting a draw is really a backup plan and when i hit i treat it as a pleasant surprise and not the norm), and you have no fold equity with a small stack.

example i have $400 in front, i call a $12 raise with 75s, flop gives me a straight draw. preflop raiser bets so i put him on an overpair, and just call the flop. turn completes a flush card, preflop raiser checks, i bet big represeting the flush, he folds. you cant do this with a small stack.

Last edited by NittyOldMan1; 07-18-2018 at 05:59 PM.
NittyOldMan1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 06:03 PM   #6
YellowHeart
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 18
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
your stack size right now is constructed for overpairs and top pair hands. small pp's are probably ok too to play here because they are so well disguised so its easy to stack people.

for stuff like 75s, get your stack to like 30x the preflop raise size and then you can start calling with these types of hands, because your main value with suited connectors is getting people to fold the flop when you have a flush draw/straight draw (actually hitting a draw is really a backup plan and when i hit i treat it as a pleasant surprise and not the norm), and you have no fold equity with a small stack.
Awesome advice. If I'm understanding correctly, I don't have enough fold equity when I have a draw or enough implied odds when I hit a hand at only 87.5 BB to call here. Where do I draw the line in terms of suited connectors here? 98s? J9s?

What about post-flop? Anything you would have done differently?

Last edited by YellowHeart; 07-18-2018 at 06:10 PM.
YellowHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 06:19 PM   #7
riverfish1
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
riverfish1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,030
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

fold pre and it's not close

Post - jam flop. You have barely more than a pot-sized bet at that point. The raise to 40 is way way to small and allows Vills to play their hand perfectly (call with draws to see a turn, etc).

You got coolered. You're never getting away from a flopped flush with that stack size.
riverfish1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 06:38 PM   #8
YellowHeart
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 18
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by riverfish1 View Post
fold pre and it's not close

Post - jam flop. You have barely more than a pot-sized bet at that point. The raise to 40 is way way to small and allows Vills to play their hand perfectly (call with draws to see a turn, etc).

You got coolered. You're never getting away from a flopped flush with that stack size.
Noted and extra noted. I have a lot to learn and it honestly excites me.
YellowHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 07:13 PM   #9
Garick
Herr Dr Prof Oberstlt
 
Garick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Do you even math, bruh?
Posts: 24,336
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Welcome to the forum, OP. In the future, please don't post results, and by that I don't just mean what V showed, but what you did at your last decision point. It biases people's advice.

Just get up to the last decision and stop there saying something like:
"Turn ($152): 5o
V2 leads out for $20
Hero: ?"
Garick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-18-2018, 07:16 PM   #10
jc315
adept
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 1,030
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

that tank call from v2 tho
jc315 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 04:28 AM   #11
YellowHeart
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 18
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
Welcome to the forum, OP. In the future, please don't post results, and by that I don't just mean what V showed, but what you did at your last decision point. It biases people's advice.

Just get up to the last decision and stop there saying something like:
"Turn ($152): 5o
V2 leads out for $20
Hero: ?"
Mm, gotcha.
YellowHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 04:29 AM   #12
YellowHeart
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 18
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc315 View Post
that tank call from v2 tho
Yeah was kinda annoyed with the slow roll myself. Maybe he didn't realize he had the absolute nuts and was only losing to the board pairing for boats and quads.
YellowHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 11:20 AM   #13
shorn7
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,497
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

As others have said, fold pre. But once you are in the hand you need to raise more on this flop and maybe even shove. Your raise to $40 total gave ayone with one high spade pot odds of $127/$25 or 5-1. Those are IMMEDIATE pot odds to call correctly and hit a flush not to mention if you are going to stack off on the turn, then they have even better odds.

So you had $155 in your stack when it gets to you on the flop. Once you call the $15, you have $140 left and the pot is $102. So shoving is most likely the best play here.
shorn7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 03:15 PM   #14
YellowHeart
newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 18
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorn7 View Post
As others have said, fold pre. But once you are in the hand you need to raise more on this flop and maybe even shove. Your raise to $40 total gave ayone with one high spade pot odds of $127/$25 or 5-1. Those are IMMEDIATE pot odds to call correctly and hit a flush not to mention if you are going to stack off on the turn, then they have even better odds.

So you had $155 in your stack when it gets to you on the flop. Once you call the $15, you have $140 left and the pot is $102. So shoving is most likely the best play here.
Agree with this. Kinda got lulled into betting smaller since people were folding to min-raises and tiny flop c-bets due to playing every hand. That wasn't the case with this gentleman and it just isn't a good default poker play. I will lean more towards shoving (or at least raising larger) when I'm under 100 bb deep in these types of spots in the future.
YellowHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2018, 03:17 PM   #15
jdr0317
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 8,087
Re: Flopped flush against 5 villains [NLHE, full ring, 1/1/2 stakes]

Yeah everyone else has detailed it OP.

One thing to really become aware of is the stack sizes and the pot size. Someone bet 15, so your knee jerk reaction is "2.5x - 3x is a good raise size', or maybe something similar.

However, the 15 bet is pretty meaningless here. It's barely 1/4th of the pot. This is a spot where you should just jam (slightly over pot to do so), because when he actually does have a good hand, you charge him the max.

Another good rule to think of is "if I have a weak hand here, would this size ever work?". If the answer is "no", then you need to make it more. In this case, we can feel certain he's never folding 99 straight away to this raise, or T8 or whatever trash hands live 1/2 players love to play. So the raise doesn't work as a bluff. So on the same token, it means your good hands like this don't pile enough $ in.
jdr0317 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2020, Two Plus Two Interactive