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Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check

11-29-2014 , 09:43 AM
1/2, 9-handed, $350 effective, villain covers. Hero and villain OTB have been chatty and friendly, hero has been villain's shoulder to cry on, as villain is in the game for $400 and is now break even. Villain is very loose PF, has even shown hero lots of his PF selection and kept showing his hand as other hands have played out. Generally fit or fold but has in 1-2 instances has bluffed weaker opponents. Other villains are tight and passive. All view hero as tight aggressive and has shown down strong hands.

Main Villain is BTN, Hero is SB.

2 limps, V raises to $5, H calls with AQcc, BB and limpers call. $25 pot.

Hero has seen villain raise PF to small amounts like this with all sorts of garbage and things like suited connectors and SPP. Rationale for calling rather than raising is H has a small pot hand. A raise to, say, 15-20 may get everyone to fold. However, V is loathe to fold PF especially with position and can make our lives hell given we will have an SPR of 9-13 which is awful for a 1-pair hand like AQ. The same problem pops up if we flat, as we still have an SPR of 14. I feel this is easier to play OOP without initiative. Raising to 25 or so may get a bunch of folds but if it doesn't it unnecessarily bloats the pot.

Flop: Kc 9c 6c (pot $25)

Hero has flopped the nuts. What is the best way to get all the monies in ASAP? Villain has shown to c-bet his entire range but will slow down OTT without improvement.

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Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-29-2014 , 10:19 AM
This is rarely the type of flop that you will get in all the money, unless someone has a lower flush (at which point money will go in no matter what) or, rarely, a set. With the villain as described, I would check/call flop and turn, and potentially check/raise river. Regardless, this flop texture is rarely the type that generates huge pots.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-29-2014 , 10:47 AM
Yeah check call is probably best. I would donk out on many turn cards. Especially if you haven't done that before it might get him to station with a weak hand he otherwise wouldn't have bet and even raise top pair+ hand because of your line.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-29-2014 , 12:19 PM
Grunch.

Pre-flop could go either way, although you say that villain will call with garbage if you raise, so 3 betting pre seems best here.

Come flop... bingo... start by checking if Villain will cbet his entire range. If Villain will continue with Kx if you c/r then I would take that line. If he would mostly fold Kx then you can c/c the flop ad lead the turn. So yeah... either c/c and lead turn and river, or c/r and bet turn and river. Against the described player I would probably take the c/r line because he is probably sticky with one pair and draws.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-29-2014 , 02:50 PM
Hi op,

This exact same situation happened to me in a live session. Oop flopping the nut flush with four other callers. I just checked it, someone bet, and then another villain raised. I made a lot of money on that hand ha. So I would just check/call. Hoping another club comes on the board and someone thinking their king high flush is good. If we bet now we might not get any callers.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-29-2014 , 03:16 PM
slowplay it imo. if another club comes, donk small for value from clubs that would check behind if given the chance. I think c/r the flop is bad because from a tite guy like you it just looks like you have a super nutted hand and anyone but a drunk or newbie rec is going to fold KQ with no FD.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-29-2014 , 04:46 PM
Lead out for $20-25.

You aren't trying to extract one bet from Villain. You're trying to stack someone. The way you do that is to lead out and hope you get raised, or else keep betting on the turn.

Villain c-betting his entire range doesn't do a lot for you because you're OOrP, so a check/raise blows other people off their hands (as opposed to trapping them for 2 bets) and if you check/call, that's basically the same thing as leading out in terms of how much of other people's money you get into the pot. Also he might bet less than the amount you'd lead out for.

Just bet your own hand and hope for something good to happen.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-30-2014 , 10:40 AM
I think CallMeVernon has it right, although its not what I did. Checked around to villain who bets $15. Hero?

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11-30-2014 , 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallMeVernon
Lead out for $20-25.

You aren't trying to extract one bet from Villain. You're trying to stack someone. The way you do that is to lead out and hope you get raised, or else keep betting on the turn.

Villain c-betting his entire range doesn't do a lot for you because you're OOrP, so a check/raise blows other people off their hands (as opposed to trapping them for 2 bets) and if you check/call, that's basically the same thing as leading out in terms of how much of other people's money you get into the pot. Also he might bet less than the amount you'd lead out for.

Just bet your own hand and hope for something good to happen.
Good point on the relative position and trapping the other players. I think I failed to notice the fact that there were 3 other players in this pot when I originally read this. I also agree that leading is probably a good line in the scenario, although against someone who will frequently cbet I definitely don't mind checking.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-30-2014 , 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie
I think CallMeVernon has it right, although its not what I did. Checked around to villain who bets $15. Hero?

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Well at $350 effective and a pot of ~$40 looks like your going to need to put in a raise somewhere if you want to comfortably get stacks in. It's tempting to slow play in the situation to maybe get a few calls behind, but with 5 players in the pot I think I would just be trying to target the stronger portion of peoples ranges here and try to get stacks in when we have the nuts against a lower flush or set. Flatting and leading the turn is also an option, although you risk missing out on value in some situations. I probably make it $50.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-30-2014 , 03:12 PM
I think given the relative position problem, now that you've already checked, you should call. The reason is that because Villain should not usually have a hand here, raising just wins the pot right now almost all of the time, which you don't want. By calling you let the other people in (and maybe you get a raise from someone else which you can backraise).

If anyone overcalls, I lead almost all turns. (Sizing will depend on what the turn is.) If no one else calls, then I'm not sure. Maybe check/raise?
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-30-2014 , 04:38 PM
What Vernon said. The description in the OP kind of anchors us to be focusing on BTN, but we should be trying to stack whoever happens to have a hand.

What are the other 3 players' stacks? Mostly I want to know if we can stack them with a b/b/b line. If we can't, and BTN is going to cbet 100% of the time, I don't have a problem with a c/c line hoping one of them c/r's and can't get away from a lower flush or set. Leading reps more strength here (while BTN's cbet is pretty much zero information), meaning a passive Villain will be less likely to raise with low clubs or a set if we lead than he would be to c/r BTN's cbet. In general though, b/b/b seems max EV most of the time.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-30-2014 , 05:07 PM
3b pre. As played lead flop for $20.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
11-30-2014 , 05:23 PM
@jay

BB had roughly $300, EP limper had about $450, MP limper had about $100. BB & EP were fit/fold, no reads on MP. Hero calls $15, limpers fold.

Pot $55

Turn is 5c. Hero checks, hoping to induce. Anybody advocate leading out?
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11-30-2014 , 07:30 PM
Sorry but 3 betting for value all day pre flop vs this guy. Turn I think leading for value is best, we can get value from all sorts of hands. Turn bet small for value.
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote
12-01-2014 , 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed
Sorry but 3 betting for value all day pre flop vs this guy. Turn I think leading for value is best, we can get value from all sorts of hands. Turn bet small for value.
Assuming we 3! PF, I agree the flop line is where it's at. I'm not sure we lead the turn given we hold the A and the K is out there. Even the dullest villain has to slow down at that point, no?
Flop the joint OOP vs LAGtard, line check Quote

      
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