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Old 12-21-2018, 11:13 AM   #1
tmo1120
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Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

Hero: 300, new to table so no image established at this point
V1: Covers me , doesn't seem to be playing loose at all but willing to play some hands other than premiums


V1 opens in EP to 15; I think he has [99+/AQ+]; I have AKo in LP , I make the 3! to 35; maybe I could flat call here vs this type of range but I love 3!'ing this hand IP bc I can put pressure on him post flop if he doesn't come over the top pre; When he flat calls me pre I can discount AA and KK a good amount and I block them; so I think QQ is the strongest hand he can have here going to the flop;


F: QTT (r) ; he checks to me; Do you cb or check back ?


thanks for any feedback
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:19 AM   #2
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

If you're not going to c-bet this board then you shouldn't have 3-bet pre.
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:37 AM   #3
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

bigger pre
range cb 30-40% pot
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:10 PM   #4
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

I think he made it 12 pre but yeah maybe I could still size up a bit;

so you think I should bet this board 100% of the time? I figured I could always put out a delayed cbet here and see if he was trapping bc he won't be able to barrel smaller pairs into me on a brick turn very often and I could just take it down; I feel I only have FE vs 99 and JJ here tbh but AA and KK heavily discounted maybe its just a bet on the flop
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:42 PM   #5
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

Pre is too small. Should be 45-50.
Cbet ~30 otf
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Old 12-21-2018, 12:55 PM   #6
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Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

Completely disagree with above all who recommending cbet 100% time.

By cbet what do we achieve? V is not going to fold any holdings with a 9/T/J/Q/K/A, which is probably 100% of his pre open-flat range. If V cr (J9s, KJs, AJ, AK), hero will have a very tough decision to make and will fold best hands a lot of time.

In contrast, by checking back, hero kept vís range wide and can play aggressively on the turn. On brick turn (7-), if v bet smaller than a pot, hero could raise as a semi bluff with 10 outs (A, K, J), which will be a very strong play and could fold out JJ/99- and AK/AJ. If Turn is Q or T, v will most likely play straightforward and hero could go either way. If Turn is A/K/J, apparently hero is happy and easy to go from there. So the only bad turn card for Hís range is probably just 8/9, why bother cbet to protect a mostly safe turn then?

Lastly, hero will probably check back QQ/TT/JJ as well, so the flop checking range shouldnít be too unbalanced.
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Old 12-21-2018, 01:06 PM   #7
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

the idea is that your range is very strong, you have a good number of combos you bet for value and are allowed to bet a lot as a bluff
also, the preflop 3bettor has a big range advantage here, since you have AA/KK and prob more Tx combos than he does
now that I think about it, you can go 1/2p with 100% of your range
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Old 12-21-2018, 03:34 PM   #8
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by ionutd View Post
the idea is that your range is very strong, you have a good number of combos you bet for value and are allowed to bet a lot as a bluff
also, the preflop 3bettor has a big range advantage here, since you have AA/KK and prob more Tx combos than he does
now that I think about it, you can go 1/2p with 100% of your range


Why does hero have more Tx than villain has? Does hero 3 bet more often with KTs/JTs/QTs/T9s or does villain raise-flat more often with such hands? 3 bettorís range is stronger pre-flop doesnít mean the same must stay true post flop.
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Old 12-21-2018, 10:12 PM   #9
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

Yes, you block the Aces and Kings but at the same time you block yourself to get an Ace or a King. So, it's like an oxymoron statement when we say "we block" villain for certain cards because we goddamned also "block" ourselves of pairing for TPTK. That's why AK misses 2 out of 3 times.
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Old 12-21-2018, 11:44 PM   #10
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

Flop probably just betting, your small 3b sizing incentivizes him to flat too many hands OOP and he will arrive to the flop with weaker holdings than if you had 3-4x’ed it.

Prob just 1/3 and give up. We also get a free river always assuming he doesnt xr which shouldnt happen often
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Old 12-22-2018, 06:21 AM   #11
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Yes, you block the Aces and Kings but at the same time you block yourself to get an Ace or a King. So, it's like an oxymoron statement when we say "we block" villain for certain cards because we goddamned also "block" ourselves of pairing for TPTK. That's why AK misses 2 out of 3 times.
you're not necessarily looking to turn and river pairs
you're looking to put max pressure by betting 2 or 3 streets with your range advantage
you can do this with a hand like AK because
a) because of how strong your betting range is, you are allowed a lot of combos to bluff otf and a decent amount on turns
b) this is one the best candidates for bluffing with blockers to AQ and KQs
c) the bulk of your opp's range is going to be mid pairs, which have a very hard time calling off the aggressor's frequent barrels
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Old 12-22-2018, 06:40 AM   #12
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

c-bet small is best almost certainly. What's the rest of the hand?
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Old 12-22-2018, 11:22 AM   #13
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

I check back the Turn is a 9 and he bets 20 into me
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Old 12-22-2018, 11:26 AM   #14
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

I'm pretty sure he made it 12 or 10 pre flop, I agree with a 3-4x 3! sizing here which is most likely what I did, didn't note that detail in my phone so can't remember
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Old 12-22-2018, 11:38 AM   #15
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by 325MG View Post
Yes, you block the Aces and Kings but at the same time you block yourself to get an Ace or a King. So, it's like an oxymoron statement when we say "we block" villain for certain cards because we goddamned also "block" ourselves of pairing for TPTK. That's why AK misses 2 out of 3 times.
This might be one of the weirdest things I've ever seen on this board. I do hate when I block my own pair draws.
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:18 PM   #16
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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"...we goddamned also "block" ourselves of pairing for TPTK. That's why AK misses 2 out of 3 times.
This would make an awesome entry in the Poker Players' Quote-of-the-Day desk calendar.
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Old 12-22-2018, 04:40 PM   #17
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by ionutd View Post
the idea is that your range is very strong, you have a good number of combos you bet for value and are allowed to bet a lot as a bluff
also, the preflop 3bettor has a big range advantage here, since you have AA/KK and prob more Tx combos than he does
now that I think about it, you can go 1/2p with 100% of your range


We get 99 to fold. AK to fold. Maybe JJ. Rest of his range is not folding.

Likely not folding AK and JJ at 100% either.

And double barreling seems awful.

Just because we have a strong range on given board. Doesn't mean we can throw his range out the window. His range was given in OP.

Your pushing small range advantage to start hand (maybe neutral ranges) on flop that we missed but still smacks his range super strong.

Sometimes you need to play your hand and not your range. When we start with razor thin edge with our 3bet, that is good place to switch gears.
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Old 12-22-2018, 05:29 PM   #18
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

Vs range OP gave. You guys realize we are ahead 0% of the time right?

So we are bluff in to get exactly 99 and JJ to fold. And get AK off chop.

Anyone have a match?
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:37 AM   #19
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
I check back the Turn is a 9 and he bets 20 into me
I know 100% I would call this small bet in live action.

But as a key board warrior I like a fold!!!!!!

At this point we are ahead 0% of time. By sizing he made we are likely drawing dead or chopping with AK.
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Old 12-23-2018, 12:42 AM   #20
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by mikko View Post
Vs range OP gave. You guys realize we are ahead 0% of the time right?

So we are bluff in to get exactly 99 and JJ to fold. And get AK off chop.

Anyone have a match?
The probability of him having OPís exact range is 0.

Thereís also the live spazz factor/bored factor, and OPís slight misranging as well. He will have some hands that will fold here, even if rarely and cbetting IP buys us 2 free cards.
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Old 12-23-2018, 02:03 AM   #21
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

55 pre. 60 flop. Shove turn. AP call turn decide riv, mostly betting large if checked to and shoving if he bets small again.

35 pre is not as bad as checking flop IP.
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Old 12-23-2018, 11:45 AM   #22
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by mikko View Post
I know 100% I would call this small bet in live action.

But as a key board warrior I like a fold!!!!!!

At this point we are ahead 0% of time. By sizing he made we are likely drawing dead or chopping with AK.
haha yea I flat called, R: 8 ; he bets 20 , I fold, he shows JJ

hand makes perfect sense when I see JJ, he was just putting out a small feeler bet on the turn with his draw; on the river it is almost tempting to raise but based on assigned range I just fold
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Old 12-23-2018, 11:48 AM   #23
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
The probability of him having OPís exact range is 0.

Thereís also the live spazz factor/bored factor, and OPís slight misranging as well. He will have some hands that will fold here, even if rarely and cbetting IP buys us 2 free cards.
His can range can certainty be wider here, this was the range I assigned in the moment based on the player type ; I do think he folds his AJs to my 3! and his PP's 22-77; I could be wrong but if so then I simply adjust my range construction after seeing more showdowns and acquiring new information
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Old 12-23-2018, 03:24 PM   #24
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

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Originally Posted by tmo1120 View Post
His can range can certainty be wider here, this was the range I assigned in the moment based on the player type ; I do think he folds his AJs to my 3! and his PP's 22-77; I could be wrong but if so then I simply adjust my range construction after seeing more showdowns and acquiring new information
Not really saying your range construction is particularly wrong, just that him having exactly that range can never be true.

Live players get bored way too often and start opening looser at times particularly when they’re card dead, so saying that we have 0% fold equity in this board cant be true. It may be low, say 5-15%, but it cant be 0.

And ofc we dont have a big enough sample size to concretely conclude his range is that (we actually never know what his true raising range/3b call range looks like ie population parameter, we can only guess based on samples). You’re probably 85%-95% correct on his range. And this isnt a bad thing. When we play poker we can never truly know someone’s true range or our true winrate, we can only make guesses based off our samples.
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Old 12-23-2018, 08:46 PM   #25
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Re: Flop decision in 3! pot , 1/2 NL

for sure man , I don't think I had 0% FE in this spot; I just thought that it was low

and yes we can only estimate a lot of things , we may not know for certain if our assigned range on V is correct but we must be confident in our read and act accordingly

i pick up a lot of things in a live setting just from sitting down for 10 minutes, i never really got into online poker at all, there's too much info out there in live games, this is what creates my confidence with ranging people , i practice all session and when i see a showdown that validates my read it lets me know that my radar is working well,
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