1-2 NL

Hero: mid 20s white kid with bball shorts but barely look 21. My table image is irrelevant considering V1 just sat down an orbit ago. Never played with V1 but have seen him around the room lately. From the chatter of 1 reg fish he seemed to elude that V1 is solid and competent. My Stack $700ish

V1: just sat down. Young white kid maybe mid 20s. Bought in full. Seems competent but I have no idea about his game. Stack $300

V2: mid aged short stacking clueless lady. Stack is like $70ish

V1 opens 10 in MP. H calls in CO with 22. V2 calls on button.

Flop A82. V1 makes a nice sized cbet of 26. I flat. I flatted hoping v2 who was totally clueless would jam her remaining 60 or so with any A or fd which would then put v1 in a tough spot weather to reraise or flat her AI. I felt this would help me define his hand more. And v2 was there to gamble and not folding often. This was her 2nd or 3rd 100 BI in a short amount of time. I thought there was a decent chance she ships. Thoughts on flatting here? Looking back it seems real bad. On a drawy board I should be raising V here and putting pressure on him, making him think i raise my draws. He could easily stereotype me as lag or a maniac and ship his AK AQ. I also flatted because I see a lot of "competent" Vs cbetting flops with air that would be suicidal. As in this case with a gambley shorstacker with 60 left. I figured he should only be cbetting real hands here and I think he c/f the turn with his air. I figured if he bets the turn he really has something and I can go for a value raise.

($85) Turn is 10 and he fires 47. At this point I put him on a real hand AK AQ AJ maybe A10. Of course 88 and 1010 always possible. I decide to raise to 165. Thoughts? Looking back I think this was bad. It allows him to get away from his AJ+ hands. Since I made the mistake of not raising the flop I think the best option was to flat turn and make him make a decision on the river. If the fd bricks I think he's more inclined to call a 100-120 bet with Aq Ak hands. Or he might make 2pr or lead a brick for value where I can raise.

So how are we playing these hands against seemingly competent Vs? I think I should have played it much faster on the flop with thre 2nd best option being flatting flop and the turn making him do something on the river. Turn raise seems pretty bad. What is he calling with that we beat besides maybe A10?

As you mentioned, I also feel not raising flop is a poor choice. I wouldn't even worry about the shortstack. My goal would be to felt V1 obviously, and that's much easier to do with a flop raise.

V can continue with Ax, FDs, blah blah...

A flop raise would probably set up a turn shove, or you might take a slightly different line and bet smaller so it's more likely you get called each street?

Maybe that's too thin, but might be easier for Villain to call off his stack in two smaller bets than a turn shove.

Not raising flop was really bad and everything after is a result of that. If she's got a flush draw she'll likely stick it in anyway, but your money in the hand is to be made from the full stacked pfr. Raise flop and get it in on turn if possible.

Pretty much this. Flopped a set with an Ace on board. Aside from the flush draw, this board is PERFECT. Not raising is FPS, imo.

Raise flop. Perfect time to pretend balance. Most people don't balance at these stakes, but a thinking player might think you are especially because you are young like him and he might get caught up in the moment. If v1 has a FD she'll probably get it in and it actually looks a ton weaker than her shoving on both of you.

AP the raise OTT is way too strong. Because you missed your chance OTF if you want anymore value you probably have to puke call again. At least raise way smaller. Your hand screams strength AP though.

Always raise this flop - this kid should often have a good Ax here considering he c-bet into you and the clueless V2. You rep a wider range raising flop (Ax / FDs/ etc) rather than raising turn (rep 2 pair plus)... (which you want to be perceived as wide/weaker). Forget about trying to maneuver around V2 who is likely a passive fish.. thus not betting for you. If V2 has an Ace, then you will get here money regardless.

As played, raise turn smallish... you are on pace for his stack without a big raise here.

Yeah have to raise flop, short stack will ship over top if she had an ace or a fd regardless of whether you flat or raise. (You didnt mention if she called or folded as played - or maybe i just missed it?)

Turn raise is huge, he cant call with an ace or a fd now because youve given him terrible odds for either. His betsizing seems to indicate hes valuing an ace, however. Also your line screams of AT or a set and hes likely to fold there any hand you beat

Thanks guys yea I knew I butchered this one. 100% I'm raising flop against rec players but I tend to find myself making mistakes against thinking players and I play hands poorly. It's almost like I find myself thinking well what would I normally do with this hand, let's do the opposite and trick him. I know this is terrible. One my leaks right now that I am trying to plug

I actually don't think the flop flat is as terrible as some others for all of the reasons you've stated in the op, just sucks it didn't work out.

The turn raise is the real issue, against a good thinking player he is rarely, if ever, paying you off with worse. However, if you let him keep firing you may end up winning a big pot on the river.

On a draw heavy board I think raising is not always manditory due to the short stack element you mentioned. I assume that she folded, but if she had shipped it would of worked so out very nicely. But on the turn when he continues again I think raising is not manditory but if I were to raise I like something a little smaller. Maybe 125-135ish.

Again when you play competent regs their can be a lot of value in flatting but it's a high risk play. I may contradict myself here but vs someone with very little history you are likely always better off raising. So ideally you cold of raised to 75-85 on flop shipped turn.

once you flat flop, you have to flat the turn.

...go on

As others have said raise flop. This makes the hand easier to play on every street. In my opinion, focusing on V2 was a mistake. It seems you played the hand to keep V2 in to extract money from instead of the villain with a stack. Not to mention V1 is most likely going to have an A here a fair % of the time, people rarely, if ever, get away from an Ace on the flop to a raise in llsnl.

You're targeting the right part of V1's range but in the wrong way. No real reason to keep weak A and draws in by flatting, on a board that smacks villains range, a large portion of his range is continuing here and you're ahead of most of it. There is a time to keep your opponents bluffs and weak hands in, but this isn't the time. On dryer flops w/ less than a Q on board more likely. But not A high on a two-toned board(though we must discount nutted FD).


You're already playing for stacks(effective)once you decide to raise the turn, so keep with that plan.


Bc F4O said so....

Given pf and flop action, I realllllly like a turn flat here. His range is heavily weighted to AQ/AK type hands--I think he bets turn heavier with 2-pair/set. We can then easily represent the hand he wants to put us on, and, more importantly, the hand we want him to put us on--namely, a flush draw.

He checks back every river. Shove on blanks, bet 50 when the flush hits.

Grunch.

At first, I really liked your flat on the flop but now I think it may have been a mistake. It would be nice to have the shorties money in the pot, but she is not the target here. You want to stack V1. The issue is if a heart comes off and he has a hand like AK, he is not going to stack off.

He came out and bet the flop pretty hard into multiple opponents, so we can assume he has a good hand here. I would just click it back and try to induce him into shoving like you stated.

As played, on the turn I don't hate it. Maybe just making it $125 or something like that would be better but I don't hate your sizing. The relevant question to be asking yourself is how much will he call with here and how much it will it leave him behind with so that he will call a reasonable amount on the river with.

But you have to start building the pot at some point.

With these stack sizes, it should be relatively simple to get the money in on the turn and river once you raise the flop.

The only reason I would flat the flop is if I looked over and saw V2 with her stack already pretty much in the middle of the table.

This is spot on, imo.

i feel like raising the flop is the best option. if you just call flop i feel like you should just call turn also, raising turn looks very strong (like you hit the flop strong) because the T really doesnt hange much. I feel if V is at all competent he will get away from AK AQ AJ