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Flop action otb @1/2 Flop action otb @1/2

09-20-2017 , 10:06 AM
Sb is a breakeven-losing rec player who likes to check raise with both bluffs and value hands. Doesn't 3 bet much.
Bb is a decent winning reg who is capable of the occasional semi bluff. 3 bets occasionally.

Folds to hero who raises to 15 otb with TT ($400)
Sb calls (covers)
Bb calls ($185)

Flop ($45)

752
Check, check, check

My reasoning for checking was that it would be a dirty spot to get check raised vs 2 players who are capable. Do you agree? Please give reasoning.

If you don't agree: what value hands would be better to check with here and Why?
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-20-2017 , 02:21 PM
I'd make a normal cbet on this flop. I'm not worried about getting x/r because we're not in great shape even against a semi-bluff and I'm looking to either collect the pot OTF or maybe get to a cheap showdown. Basically, a x/r is often going to be a sign that we're either somewhat ahead or way behind and I'm happy to bail out in that case.

I'd be more likely to check back a hand like TdTx, where we have more equity and getting x/r is a more difficult decision. I'm betting very strong hands (hoping to catch a second-best hand) or weaker hands (hoping to take it down). Hands in the middle are candidates for checking back. I think TT without a diamond is a bit too weak to check here.
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-20-2017 , 04:37 PM
I would Cbet as you are ahead on this flop like 60-80 percent of the time but probably have less than 50 percent equity. Board is never going to get better and check calling on later streets is going to suck anyway. Might as well get some money in now and take a stab.

Our hand also isn't such an amazing bluff catcher that folding to a raise is that painful. I also wouldn't expect to get raised that often.
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-20-2017 , 04:49 PM
I’d B/F flop, close to a PSB, for value. No problem if X/R since equity is marginal at best. Unless improved, our hand has likely one-street of value, so I’d try to extract OTF.

Besides allowing a free card, checking back also creates vulnerability by allowing opponents to bluff an over card OTT. Hero is likely to bet over cards with a diamond OTF.
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-20-2017 , 05:35 PM
20 bucks
It's a 1/2 btn open vs both blinds, just move all value hands into a betting range, even one this far down - you'll have plenty of hands to continue with facing a raise, and a pretty routine fold w this one nbd.
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-20-2017 , 06:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Case2
I'd make a normal cbet on this flop. I'm not worried about getting x/r because we're not in great shape even against a semi-bluff and I'm looking to either collect the pot OTF or maybe get to a cheap showdown. Basically, a x/r is often going to be a sign that we're either somewhat ahead or way behind and I'm happy to bail out in that case.

I'd be more likely to check back a hand like TdTx, where we have more equity and getting x/r is a more difficult decision. I'm betting very strong hands (hoping to catch a second-best hand) or weaker hands (hoping to take it down). Hands in the middle are candidates for checking back. I think TT without a diamond is a bit too weak to check here.
Ok ya I agree with the bet strong hands, check middling hands and bet weaker hands. But generally those weaker hands are straight up bluffs, which isn't the case here, so it's an interesting spot. Against players who rarely ever check raise I think it's a clear bet. But when they are capable of check raising, it's a lot more tricky.

My thoughts:

-There are times when we do showdown our hand after being called on the flop, but i dont think this happens
very often
-They can fold tons of equity. BUT would we not be better off betting with straight up bluffs if we're not that likely to get to showdown anyway?
- In the instances they check raise, we're "bluffing" with a decent hand, which is wasted. Better to bluff with air?
- advantage of checking: IF a blank hits (big if) and both villains check, we pretty much have the nuts. We'd turn a very unsure situation into a very sure situation.
I agree it would be better to check TTx for the reasons you mentioned, plus it's less likely he has a diamond. I think the clearest checks are AAx and KKx. Can't decide if AA/KK w/ no diamond are better checks or not. Also, I think being in position makes a check better than when we're oop, I think because of our ability to pot control but I'm not sure about this either. I lean towards checking but it's far from a sure thing.
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-20-2017 , 06:26 PM
You're playing 1/2. You can bet down to 99 here for value.
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-21-2017 , 03:32 AM
never betting that flop. way way too easy to semibluff hero off of his hand.

calling V down is size and situation dependent
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09-21-2017 , 11:27 AM
I concur with Case2's analysis
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09-21-2017 , 12:33 PM
betting OTF also gives us an idea of what type of cards they might be calling us with or the frequency of their bluffing range. i dont mind the check tbh
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-21-2017 , 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy22
Ok ya I agree with the bet strong hands, check middling hands and bet weaker hands. But generally those weaker hands are straight up bluffs, which isn't the case here, so it's an interesting spot. Against players who rarely ever check raise I think it's a clear bet. But when they are capable of check raising, it's a lot more tricky.

My thoughts:

-There are times when we do showdown our hand after being called on the flop, but i dont think this happens
very often
-They can fold tons of equity. BUT would we not be better off betting with straight up bluffs if we're not that likely to get to showdown anyway?
- In the instances they check raise, we're "bluffing" with a decent hand, which is wasted. Better to bluff with air?
- advantage of checking: IF a blank hits (big if) and both villains check, we pretty much have the nuts. We'd turn a very unsure situation into a very sure situation.
I agree it would be better to check TTx for the reasons you mentioned, plus it's less likely he has a diamond. I think the clearest checks are AAx and KKx. Can't decide if AA/KK w/ no diamond are better checks or not. Also, I think being in position makes a check better than when we're oop, I think because of our ability to pot control but I'm not sure about this either. I lean towards checking but it's far from a sure thing.
We certainly want to use our worst hands for bluffing, but we probably don't want to bluff with all of our worst hand since that would likely leave us with too many bluffs. So we're going to just x/f some of our worst hands. Given that, it makes sense to bluff with the best of our worst and fold the worst of the worst.

Agreed, we may well not get to showdown if we bet. But I'm not sure the chances go up if we check behind.

I think betting helps them make more FTOP errors. Any diamond should call us if they knew what we had, but many will fold. The good diamonds will call, of course, but we're at least getting some value from them. We avoid tempting them to semi-bluff OTT and river (which is what they should do, given our hand). I think the LLSNL pop x/r semi-bluffs this rarely, so folding is unlikely to be an error on our part.

I don't think checking the flop (presumably planning to call safe turns and hoping the river checks through) is a terrible line, but I think we'll make more/lose less with more aggressive action.
Flop action otb @1/2 Quote
09-22-2017 , 12:07 PM
Since this is an excellent continuation bet board, it only makes sense to bet your made hands here. You don't mind being c/r here, since you will of course not call it even if the villain has a tendency to c/r bluff sometimes. My strategy here would be to bet 35-45 with weak made hands, flush draws and strong made hands 100% of the time and make a c-bet when I miss around 70-80% of the time. If you get raised you can continue with strong flush draws and strong made hands (set or higher) and fold the rest. This would be a balanced strategy to keep the ones who pay attention guessing, while also winning a lot of 'undeserved' pots and making people pay you often enough when you have something.

Checking here would disrupt the balanced strategy.
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