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Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live

01-28-2016 , 03:33 PM
Hello I play 1/2 NL 2 times per week and have a tight image at the local casino. I play almost exclusively friday and saturdays. Average stacks are 220-350 by midnight. Average PFR is 10-12.
Question hero has 300 and villian has 150-300 on average is it more profitable to flat call or 3 bet. Please offer suggestions based on the type of villain you could do each option with and if their is other callers before hero.
I historically have 3 bet almost always but flatted with AA with 1 caller and stacked the villain on a 753r board he had 1010 the other night.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 04:12 PM
If your opponent is very aggressive then I don't mind flatting since he is going to continue to bet post flop.

If your opponent is passive then you need to 3bet since you wont make much money post flop. Passive opponents will usually call a 3bet after they open a pot with a raise and wont continue with their hand unless they hit the flop. Many times they will be folding after the flop, but some bad opponents will stack off if they hold an overpair to the board like 1010 on a 9 high flop. We need to take advantage of this.

If there are multiple callers preflop than you need to make a mandatory 3bet to deny set mining odds as well as building a huge pot with a huge hand. You can also fold to 4bets if a nit comes over the top of your 3bet and you hold QQ or JJ.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 04:39 PM
You should almost always be 3 betting with these hands, only in rare circumstances would flatting be better..
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 06:23 PM
I'm virtually never flatting a single raise with QQ+ in a live low stakes game. The only circumstances I can think of that would ever come up are:

1. vs. a single raise by a total and utter nit who only raises KK+ in which case I can flat QQ to set-mine, KK to play poker and 3bet AA to stack now.

2. In position vs. a single raise by someone who is so short stacked that it's a lock money will go in, even then I'm never flatting QQ, I would jam it now.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 07:15 PM
I suggest noting some hands in which this decision comes up and posting them here. IMO there are so many variables (stack size, position, V reads, H image, table dynamics) that general advice is going to have so many caveats and "it depends" that it's going to be minimally useful.

I think you'll find it much easier to proceed from the specific to the general with some posted hand histories.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 07:17 PM
Flatting 3 bets in position with reads is one thing. Flatting open raises with Premiums is just bad unless it's due to some kind of read that someone's an agro 3 bettor. If you don't get any value when you 3bet you should start 3 betting light or as a bluff.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 07:29 PM
Only times I like flatting are when you're closing action in BB vs a short stack who is going to hand you their money postflop. I'm not good enough to invite blinds into pot and play deep stacked even in position with QQ four way too. KK/AA maybe yeah
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Doomed
If you don't get any value when you 3bet you should start 3 betting light or as a bluff.
Yeah this, I mean if the entire table is going to autofold when you 3bet, well 3bet any two and flat QQ+.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 07:36 PM
3bet. Big hand, big pot. If they're folding too much, then 3bet more hands - they either keep folding and you keep winning pots with bad cards, or they start calling lighter so you start winning bigger pots with your premiums. you win either way.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 07:44 PM
The standard play should be to 3bet all of them (along with other hands). Flatting should be the rare exception where you can articulate (to yourself) why you are flatting and exactly what you want to accomplish. The one thing you shouldn't be doing is trying to slow play and trap with AA or KK. Unless you improve from an overpair, you're likely to be behind if there is betting on the turn and river.

In the example the OP gave, my guess is that if he had 3bet pf, he would have still got stacks in against this villain. As stated above, if he's folding to your 3bets holding TT, you need to 3bet him much more often.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 08:20 PM
These guys sound extraordinarily easy to play against just mix it up a little bit preflop and based on what your OP describes they're perfectly willing to make huge mistakes postflop.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 10:28 PM
I have read all the posts and thank you for the advice. In response i see the consensus is to always 3 bet when any else has called and to open my 3 bet range.
I do feel that a lot of the players i face are level one thinkers and will only see their cards however my 3 bets get folded to about 60% of the time.
i get 4bet only 10-15% and the range is always always KK+
What range would you all suggest i expand my 3 betting range to vs the average 1/2nl fish or weak reg. my range is honestly qq-AA and sometimes jj/aks/ako. Do you recomend 3 bettting PP or kqs,aqs??
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 10:31 PM
boybuilder good point to fold to nit if hero holding qq deep and gets 4 bet
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-28-2016 , 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcmoney5499
What range would you all suggest i expand my 3 betting range to vs the average 1/2nl fish or weak reg. my range is honestly qq-AA and sometimes jj/aks/ako. Do you recomend 3 bettting PP or kqs,aqs??
What do they call with? Then construct a range that crushes that.

EDIT

So say someone calls with all pockets and AQ+, 3bet AK and say 99+ for example. So they continue with AT+/88, go with AQ+/JJ. Something like that.

If they 4bet you, fold all except KK+ or if you are 100% certain it's always KK+ and you haven't put too much in, you can fold KK but try not to overdo that.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-29-2016 , 12:00 AM
If you're absolutely never going to 3bet with anything other than QQ+ then I could see why flatting would work better for you. If people always fold to your 3bets the obvious answer would be to polarize your range.
Although against a nit limper that only raises once into a pot in a blue moon, probably not a great idea to 3 bet.

3betting a M/LP raiser that usually raises into pots when entering is probably a good time to polarize your 3bet range.
Their range will be at its widest and if you rarely do it they won't know the difference and will assume you have QQ+
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-29-2016 , 01:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackInDaCrak
These guys sound extraordinarily easy to play against just mix it up a little bit preflop and based on what your OP describes they're perfectly willing to make huge mistakes postflop.
Why would you need to mix it up at 1/2? I've had regs make fun of me for being nitty then limp call KTo vs me for $15.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-29-2016 , 01:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LordRiverRat
Why would you need to mix it up at 1/2? I've had regs make fun of me for being nitty then limp call KTo vs me for $15.

Did you even read the OP?
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-29-2016 , 01:48 AM
^ OK he stacked a guy with TT cause he didn't 3 bet. Guy woulda called TT and stacked off anyways especially on that flop. What's your point?

If you want me to answer his question, the answer is 3 bet unless they fold way too much to 3 bets and it's likely to be a heads up pot. Or if there's an aggro squeezer behind but even then you will definitely want to squeeze if calling would make you the 3rd or 4th caller. Just don't do something stupid like flat AA for the purpose of keeping your flatting range uncapped at 1/2.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-29-2016 , 04:04 PM
If people are 3b squeezing from the button or blinds I like flatting in LP for deception a lot. I do this fairly often in 2/5-5/10 games. Not sure how often people are squeezing in 1/2 though. If you're not 3b these hands then you need to not 3b any hands.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-29-2016 , 08:29 PM
When you all are 3 betting what ratio to the pfr bet are you doing ie. pfr mp is 10 do you 3bet to 25 or 30 or 35 and do you vary depending on the strength of your hand randomly to keep people off balance... so far i have always tripled their bet if heads up . my understanding of 3 betting is to build a big pot. so what works best for you and why..txs
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-29-2016 , 09:18 PM
Pot sized bet is a good starting place for all raises unless you can articulate a good reason to deviate from it based on stack sizes or opponent tendencies.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote
01-30-2016 , 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jcmoney5499
What range would you all suggest i expand my 3 betting range to vs the average 1/2nl fish or weak reg.
When you are up and your 3 bets are being folded to, wait a few hands, pretend you have AA and play preflop accordingly. You may be surprised by the result. Just don't make a habit of it.
Flatting QQ-KK-AA In position vs 3 betting 1/2nl live Quote

      
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