Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
this fish is off the hook this fish is off the hook

08-14-2013 , 11:37 PM
2 hands here with same V. Please comment on either or both. Thanks very much.

1/2 NL

Table: one of the most loose passive tables I've ever witnessed, there are sometimes 2 and 3 limped pots IN A ROW, no one is reraising (except Hero maybe twice entire session). Stacks range from $560 to $33.

Villain: petite asian woman in her mid to late 40s, dressed nice-casual, talkative, shows her cards post-hand almost 50% of the time, is playing LITERALLY 90+% of her hands PF, only raises pre with AQs+ ($12-$17), has a WIDE OPEN preflop-raise calling range (anything up to $15), i've seen her limp with AJs, is winning almost every hand she plays, 2nd largest stack ($515ish)

Hero: male, white, was @ table when she sat down, now seated 2 to her right (with no seat change in sight) TAG, picked up some fish-bones earlier when riv made hero's flush & his straight, biggest stack @ $560ish., Hero always raises to $8 if he is 1st to enter pot regardless of holdings, otherwise he over-limps or raises.

Hand 1:

Hero-UTG ($560): K Q
Villain-UTG+2 ($515): x x

PF: Hero raises to $8, V makes it $15, folds around to Hero, who calls.

FLOP: 6 J J
Pot ~$32
Hero checks, Villain checks behind.

TURN: 6 J J 9
Pot ~$32
Hero checks, V bets $15.

Hero?

Should I be C-betting virtually ALL flops vs. V's range here?

Yes, I suck, I know.

Hand 2 (later that same evening):

Hero-BB ($520): 7 7
Villain-UTG+1 ($540): x x

PF: UTG limps, V makes it $17, 2 callers, Hero calls.

FLOP: 7 9 10
Pot~$67

Hero checks, V makes it $30, folds around to Hero who raises to $70, V thinks for 5 seconds and calls.

TURN: 7 9 10 6
Pot~$204

Hero checks, V checks behind.

RIV: 7 9 10 6 9

Hero?

Spoiler:
Hero bets out $100, V folds & shows J J.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-14-2013 , 11:48 PM
Based on the description, V has a monster holding in hand 1 and fold pre. fold flop. fold turn. get out.

For hand 2, Villain is likely to have a big pocket pair or AK, AQ. As such, I like c/c flop. This way she thinks she is value betting her KK or if she does have AK, we allow her to double barrel and gift us money. As played bet this river for value. I would bet 135.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-14-2013 , 11:50 PM
Fold hand 1. Especially after the raise, you're a massive dog to her raising range. Not a big fan of raising to 8 UTG with KQo when lots of players will call. Bad bad bad.

Bet turn hand 2. Are you that worried about TT? V can have all sorts of overpairs and FDs+ Overs that will call a turn bet.

And FYI it isn't a C-bet if you aren't the preflop aggressor.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-14-2013 , 11:54 PM
Hand one: Preflop is fine. Calling the fish raise for an extra $7 and checking on this flop and turn is fine, with the intentional to call a smallish bet as we have picked up a gutshot with our two overs. If we bricked the turn (picked up no extra equity) I might barrel twice and get all A high's to fold by the river - ONLY if I knew she was capable of folding A highs after calling turn bets on these dry-ish boards. We're not c-betting btw as we are checking to the 3bettor post-flop. Betting into her on the flop here would be donk-betting not c-betting.

Hand two: Flatting the raise pre OOP (out of position) is fine this deep vs a fish even if we were HU oop because we expect to get a lot of post-flop value from a lot of her range if we bink. Since we binked, our check is fine as the board is textured and we're multi-way and would expect a bet from the original raiser at least if not someone else. The raise size is too small - I'm making it $90-$95. Depending on her post flop tendencies I'm either betting $120 or checking (if she's folding to scare cards often - check, if she plays a lot of her weak range to a decent bet then obviously bet). As played on the river, we're betting at least 2/3'-3/4's pot with the intention to call a shove and hope she holds a straight or a flush, or stupidly played 9 (again, post flop tendencies).
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 12:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooner90
Hand one: Preflop is fine. Calling the fish raise for an extra $7 and checking on this flop and turn is fine, If we bricked the turn (picked up no extra equity) I might barrel twice and get all A high's to fold by the river - ONLY if I knew she was capable of folding A highs after calling turn bets on these dry-ish boards.
Preflop is cancer. How do you suppose we make money with KQo oop vs a passive lady who tells us she has AQs+? Flop a straight and cooler her? How is raising to 8 UTG with KQo into stations a good idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by spooner90
If we bricked the turn (picked up no extra equity) I might barrel twice and get all A high's to fold by the river - ONLY if I knew she was capable of folding A highs after calling turn bets on these dry-ish boards.
Why are you more inclined to bluff without equity than with it? We don't have the odds to call a gutshot ott, especially as its not drawing to the nuts and one of our outs is dirty.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 12:07 AM
Hand 1 we have to fold pre. Her range completely crushes yours and we likely won't know where we stand if we hit a good flop, especially oop. I'm folding pre and feeling good.

Hand 2 is fine pre flop. Based on description I'm assuming she's (typically) not folding over pairs. There's around 15 - 24 cards that kill our action on the turn, I'm making at Minimum a pot sized raise.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 12:18 AM
I though that the 8 dollar 4xbb consistent pre flop raise has to be a leak. You need to be mixing it up based on position, cards player dynamics etc. You should be raising large enough to isolate or build pots depending on what ur holding and ur position.
Any way, the 2nd hand was played fairly well, the sizing on the flop was a little small. Also I think a bet on the turn to charge for flush draws and set up the pot size for a shove on the river, but checking since our of position isn't bad. On river slam dunk value bet for 1/2-2/3 pot.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 12:25 AM
Hand 1 is a super obvious fold pre, her range is probably something ridiculous like qq+/ak
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooner90
Betting into her on the flop here would be donk-betting not c-betting.
lmao duly noted
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 12:26 AM
Hand 2 I would just keep betting because they have JJ-AA a lot
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 12:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rumor
Hand 1 is a super obvious fold pre, her range is probably something ridiculous like qq+/ak
It seems so obvious now that this was the case, but during the hand, I put her on a wider range. It's becoming clearer now that the "act" of her reraise is much more telling than the "size" of it.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 01:48 AM
Again, for importance I will make a reminder of how big of a leak the raise size OTF of hand #2 is.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brojaysimpson
Again, for importance I will make a reminder of how big of a leak the raise size OTF of hand #2 is.
Thanks brojay. I need all the help I can get, obviously.

Makes sense, I don't see her going anywhere on this flop, up to say a $90-$100 raise.

Sent from my ADR6350 using 2+2 Forums
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambre
Preflop is cancer. How do you suppose we make money with KQo oop vs a passive lady who tells us she has AQs+? Flop a straight and cooler her? How is raising to 8 UTG with KQo into stations a good idea?



Why are you more inclined to bluff without equity than with it? We don't have the odds to call a gutshot ott, especially as its not drawing to the nuts and one of our outs is dirty.
Raising pre is fine vs loose passives because we dominate a lot of hands that call our raise. If we get 3b to a decent amount we can easily fold the hand. This is a pretty straight-forward adjustment to the table dynamic, where usually raising KQo UTG is burning money. If you disagree then play a little more live 1/2. Anyway, If we're comfortable with our hand reading ability then calling the extra 7 into 25 is fine if we can get away with only paying off one street of villain's value range should we only catch one pair. As the majority of villains are loose passive. we would expect to lose minimal $ when we are behind. It seems a bit loose but we shouldn't be losing a ton of money post flop if we have any idea we're behind.

You can ignore the bluff line, I was wrong to suggest that because we're against loose passives. It would contradict the adjustment I suggested above, but in a heads up situation if she's a bit fit or fold it still wouldn't be terrible to bluff off A high for a decent bet OTR. It's entirely read dependent but I wouldn't advocate it.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 02:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spooner90
Raising pre is fine vs loose passives because we dominate a lot of hands that call our raise.
My qualm was more with the sizing, it's likely to get a lot of callers, and we'll have to c/f a load of turns.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 04:41 PM
hand 1. lead out at that flop. if checked around must lead out on turn. As played fold.
hand 2. lead out on flop. V raises. You min/raise (shove). V calls. EZ game.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 07:36 PM
Thanks for your replies folks, I appreciate it!
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 08:36 PM
Hand 1: C/f turn. I don't mind PF this deep, but we're basically playing to flop a nutted hand vs. her strong range. PF is an easy fold to the 3-bet if we're 100, or even 150, bbs deep.

Hand 2: Raise way more on the flop if you're going to c/r. I prefer leading most of the time. As played, why are you checking turn. After she calls flop, her range is probably JJ+ and AdKd, so just barrel turn for value. Bet fairly small OTR, that's a really bad card for her range, so she's not likely to call a large v-bet.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-15-2013 , 10:05 PM
bet turn in hand 2. We flopped a set against a bad player, we need to be working on getting stacks in.

Don't worry about him holding an 8 until he tells you he has an 8.
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-16-2013 , 01:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtagliaf
bet turn in hand 2. We flopped a set against a bad player, we need to be working on getting stacks in.

Don't worry about him holding an 8 until he tells you he has an 8.
We're not worried he has an 8. We're worried that she's worried we have an 8
this fish is off the hook Quote
08-16-2013 , 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAHZero
Hand 1: C/f turn. I don't mind PF this deep, but we're basically playing to flop a nutted hand vs. her strong range. PF is an easy fold to the 3-bet if we're 100, or even 150, bbs deep.

Hand 2: Raise way more on the flop if you're going to c/r. I prefer leading most of the time. As played, why are you checking turn. After she calls flop, her range is probably JJ+ and AdKd, so just barrel turn for value. Bet fairly small OTR, that's a really bad card for her range, so she's not likely to call a large v-bet.
Good suggestions RAHZero, I appreciate it.

I agree with your comments on both hands, although I certainly could've folded Hand 1 PF before OR after I raised.

And yes, my check raise on Hand 2 was coincidentally the last time (during the hand) I extracted any value from V, so I need to think about that next time. I'm very confident she would have called anything up to about $95 total, possibly even more. She would have called $20 OTR but not much more I'm guessing, not sure where her threshold was there.
this fish is off the hook Quote

      
m