Hey team, I've been out quite a while. Sat down at a $1/2 game and played well -- up over 150 BB -- but I think I made a couple mistakes.

Hero: $350
Villain: $150

Hero: KK

Preflop:
Villain (UTG+1) raises to $7.
four callers.
Here (BB) raises to $23
Villain, MP, and SB call.

Flop (Pot = ~$110)
K 6 4

Hero bets $70
Villain calls (grumbles here we again -- I stacked him with nut flush earlier)
Everyone folds

Turn (Pot = $250)
K 6 4 J

Hero checks.
Villain bets $50.
Hero calls.

River (Pot = $350)

K 6 4 J 9

Hero checks.
Villain shoves ($73)
Hero ...

The question is how often is he betting AhX on turn and jamming river. There are 7 combos of AhJx+. Add 3 combos if he raises/calls AhTx if he's raising/calling that. There are only 9 combos of AhXh.

Raise more pre. A good rule of thumb is 3x+1x per caller +x if oop where x is the open raise size

So if it had folded to you its 3*7+0*7+7 =$28

In the real hand its 3*7 + 4*7 + 7 = $56.

What you are doing with this trick is close to a pot sized raise, and there are some good reasons for pot sized raises pre.

You can manipulate this a bit, for example i think $45 would be plenty.

As played I'd go smaller otf or check, usually not checking 12 ways though, and turn is a ship.

Thanks. This is very helpful.

As I re-read the post, turn has to be ship if I'm calling river, right? Otherwise, I'm letting AhX draw for free, paying off made flush no matter what, and allowing made flush to potentially fold if the boar pairs.

As played, is river a call?

Calling the $73 with your hand every single time. The price is just too good to fold at this point. I agree that you should’ve shoved turn. Along with raising a lot more pf

Can you confirm stack sizes? Looks like villain started the hand with $216 (23 + 70 + 50 + 73)?

Assuming this is accurate, turn is definitely a shove.

It's mostly because turn is often where the most value is. Villains over call turn bets and over fold river bets. This is because they are such stations (literally calling to try to hit 2pr or trips or whatever) that they get to river with a really wide range that has to fold a lot.

I've seen people call a stuff on this turn with like the bare Q. No clue wtf is going through their mind bc they could be drawing dead but yea, they call so freaking much man. So the times they would call a turn all in with Kx or Ax, or QJ, or JJ, or whatever, but check fold river, we miss a lot of value if we check.

We also can't be afraid of calls (be afraid of aggression tho). But if they just keep calling then bombs away. Think of all the times you stuff AQ as a bluff here and get snap called by black KQ and think WTF WHAT A STATION...remember this and start value shoving thinner.

If you stuff into a flush, w/e. If you aren't value owning yourself occasionally you aren't value betting enough.

Yes, as played call, your pot odds are too good and you don't need to win often.

This is very helpful. Thank you.

I've been playing entirely backwards. Thanks for this.

Heh, to be clear there are alot of good spots to check turn, i used to do it alot and am bringing it back now. They are really face up spots like a 3b pot with AK where we bet K27r check 2r turn. But thats a totally different hand and we are targeting 2 streets (flop, river) from 88-QQ and weaker Kx. These hands ALWAYS call a river bet if turn checks through, but conversely they fold turn alot to a second barrel.

When I "learned" alot about ranging and such I stopped this face up line...but man it really does just make so much extra money vs middling pairs.

But yea, for draws, max dat value ott. I 3x shoved a turn the other day and got called by a bare K high flush. Not kidding.

So it depends

should be added to the forum stickies

Great advice from Avaritia. To reiterate:
- Make it around $50 preflop. We don't want to invite people with T9s, A3s and 44 into the pot cheaply.
- Value bet thinly. This is a clear turn jam as played. Trust me, a lot of villains at these stakes will call a $120 turn jam here with ridiculous hands like black KT or Qh with nothing else to go with it. You need to punish them hard when you flop a set, regardless of whether there are straights or flushes out there.

Good addendum here... Yeah I agree, some runouts like this, V’s are overcalling turns and overfolding rivers. But many many others they are overfolding turns and overcalling rivers (this is why it seems most good players learn to fire two barrels often as bluffs, but make sure they have it on the third). And some villains just call too much all the time.

Bigger everywhere it'll make hands easier to play

if you check the turn, all in, but betting is so much better.