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Old 08-10-2018, 07:30 AM   #1
Millnoc
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First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

Just sat at this at this must move 2/5 game at midnight. It’s 6handed, but o ly 5 dealt in here. Hero with 500 villain says he’s running amazing, and has 1300.

Hero is a 30y.o. WG, looks competent. Sweatshirt. Should be readless otherwise.
Villain is a 25 y.o. Asian kid. Never seen him in the cardroom before. Only clue is how he said that he was running great, like he was amazed and didn’t know how to handle it.

V raises UTG to 20. Folds to H in the BB who has AQ. I just call here. Not my default play, but heads up and an unknown opponent I chose to take a flop.

Flop $38 Q55 H checks V bets 30. Hero calls.
Turn $95 Q558 H checks V checks.
River $95 Q5587 H bets $80

All streets appreciated. 3b pre? Polarize OTF with a raise? Betsize on river? Thnks
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:44 AM   #2
oldsilver
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

Don’t like the river sizing
Otherwise seems ok as one alt line, there are others.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:12 AM   #3
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

Readless, pre call is ok, imho.

Flop - not raising, folding worse, might be 3-b with the NFD part of his range besides KK+.

Turn - ok.

River - smaller, say $45-50.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:28 AM   #4
Mr Spyutastic
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

Yup I'm with the $40 river.
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:53 AM   #5
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Millnoc View Post
Just sat at this at this must move 2/5 game at midnight. It’s 6handed, but o ly 5 dealt in here. Hero with 500 villain says he’s running amazing, and has 1300.

Hero is a 30y.o. WG, looks competent. Sweatshirt. Should be readless otherwise.
Villain is a 25 y.o. Asian kid. Never seen him in the cardroom before. Only clue is how he said that he was running great, like he was amazed and didn’t know how to handle it.

V raises UTG to 20. Folds to H in the BB who has AQ. I just call here. Not my default play, but heads up and an unknown opponent I chose to take a flop.

Flop $38 Q55 H checks V bets 30. Hero calls.
Turn $95 Q558 H checks V checks.
River $95 Q5587 H bets $80

All streets appreciated. 3b pre? Polarize OTF with a raise? Betsize on river? Thnks
that´s what I don´t get.
Not saying it´s good or bad, but why would you state something is NOT your default play, and you choose to deviate from your default play because! you have no reads?

You can deviate from your default play if you develop some reads, not the other way round.
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:13 AM   #6
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

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Originally Posted by sauhund View Post
that´s what I don´t get.
Not saying it´s good or bad, but why would you state something is NOT your default play, and you choose to deviate from your default play because! you have no reads?

You can deviate from your default play if you develop some reads, not the other way round.
that's what I thought too
I read it and said either it is op's default play but he knows we are all going to say 3 bet
or he deviated because he was intimidated by V

3 or fold pre if you don't want to tangle with MR RUNGOOD.
5 handed Def need to 3 here

I would have c/c river
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:38 AM   #7
whatnow88
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

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Originally Posted by oldsilver View Post
Don’t like the river sizing
Otherwise seems ok as one alt line, there are others.
+1
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Old 08-10-2018, 10:54 AM   #8
Mr Spyutastic
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

If you choose to get to the river with this line you need to bet. Check/call line vs majority of villains you will just be value towning yourself.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:39 AM   #9
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

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Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
If you choose to get to the river with this line you need to bet. Check/call line vs majority of villains you will just be value towning yourself.
I disagree

V opened UTG

if he raises the river you got to fold

if he is behind he'll fold

C/C gives V a chance to bluff /perceive value bet river
and you can pick him off

if Hero 3-bet pre then I agree lead river but as played I like C/C

UTG open range vs SB call range
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:50 AM   #10
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

pre is really close between 3! and call, I lean 3! but not a huge deal

flop good (raising doesnt accomplish much because really only KQ will call)

turn good

river I like $60 more than 80 because if he has a hand like TT it is way more likely to call 50-60 than 80
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:34 PM   #11
Millnoc
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

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Originally Posted by snowman View Post
that's what I thought too
I read it and said either it is op's default play but he knows we are all going to say 3 bet
or he deviated because he was intimidated by V

3 or fold pre if you don't want to tangle with MR RUNGOOD.
5 handed Def need to 3 here

I would have c/c river
You’re right. This is a great example of how someone winning can intimidate everyone at the table, even experienced players.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:46 PM   #12
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

Pre 6-handed im 3-betting AQ pretty often, esp vs a 25 y.o asian kid who’s running hot. Here im snap 3-betting always, so much value value to be had and him folding the bottom of his range is completely fine and good for us. There are few players i wouldnt 3b AQo BB vs UTG raise 6-handed (e.g. he wayyyyy over 4b bluffs which is almost nobody or is a super mega nit who opens < 10% utg 6-handed).

Flop and turn conpletely std

Otr id just go 2/3 pot, your bet is way too big
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Old 08-11-2018, 07:12 AM   #13
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

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Originally Posted by snowman View Post
I disagree

V opened UTG

if he raises the river you got to fold

if he is behind he'll fold

C/C gives V a chance to bluff /perceive value bet river
and you can pick him off

if Hero 3-bet pre then I agree lead river but as played I like C/C

UTG open range vs SB call range
Villain often has a hand worth showdown. Not too many bluffs on this board given hero should have most of the flushes. When you check call you're almost never up against a bluff. it's going to go check check so often that betting small is clearly better EV. And villain is bluff raising like never.
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Old 08-11-2018, 09:57 AM   #14
Millnoc
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

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Originally Posted by Minatorr View Post
Pre 6-handed im 3-betting AQ pretty often, esp vs a 25 y.o asian kid who’s running hot. Here im snap 3-betting always, so much value value to be had and him folding the bottom of his range is completely fine and good for us. There are few players i wouldnt 3b AQo BB vs UTG raise 6-handed (e.g. he wayyyyy over 4b bluffs which is almost nobody or is a super mega nit who opens < 10% utg 6-handed).

Flop and turn conpletely std

Otr id just go 2/3 pot, your bet is way too big
Thank you for adding the “and good for us” part. I often forget that picking up 5.5 BB is a fine result. BTW, whats your 3b bluff range in this spot vs an unknown asian kid UTG? If were 3b as wide as AQo and AJs and like 99+ i assume, what, if anything, are we balancing with?
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Old 08-12-2018, 01:08 AM   #15
Minatorr
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Re: First orbit at SH 2/5 flop TPTK OOP

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Originally Posted by Millnoc View Post
Thank you for adding the “and good for us” part. I often forget that picking up 5.5 BB is a fine result. BTW, whats your 3b bluff range in this spot vs an unknown asian kid UTG? If were 3b as wide as AQo and AJs and like 99+ i assume, what, if anything, are we balancing with?
Vs unknown i don't have bluffing ranges as an exploit esp BB vs UTG. UTG ranges on average tend to be stronger, and I want to flat my playable hands here like KQo/AJo/SCs closing the action and if i am getting a good price to defend.

AJs I think is a pretty clear flat from BB vs UTG. I think AJs is just a little bit too weak vs an UTG to 3b bc UTG has 16 combos of AQo/16 combos of AK, so we are in pretty bad shape bc most players arent folding AQo to a 3-bet. Plus if we get 4-bet we kinda hate our life because the suitedness is such a nice thing to have postflop and we basically got blown off it; we cant ever really call here barring some reads that he does dumb stuff like 4b 65o or a bunch of spazzy hands. Wheres AQo if we get 4b it's a whatever muck, also when we 3b we get value from AJs and some AJo UTG doesn't fold.

I don't particularly like 3-betting 99-1010 BB vs UTG either, i think flatting closing the action is a little better. They dont play well in 3b pots vs UTG 3-bet calling ranges, we are OOP, and it's really hard to 3b 99-1010 vs UTG raiser and say we are 3-betting for value. It's mergy, getting more onto the bluff side except we arent folding any better hands so it's not really a bluff.

So in a vacuum vs unknown UTG raiser from BB i'd 3b something like JJ+, AQo+ and then adjust based on what their RFI/fold to 3-bet/postflop tendencies are (e.g. do they play fit-or-fold or try to run you down postflop. I don't think balance is particularly necessary or even helpful at all esp vs an unknown UTG raise. I'm pretty sure 3-bet bluffing vs an UTG raise is basically just lighting money on fire in a vacuum, 65s-J10s, A2s-A5s, etc. Personally I think 3b bluffing in a lot of scenarios is just FPS, especially vs people who literally dont even pay attention, vs an unknown player, and esp vs an EP raiser. 3b bluffs are technically supposed to be BE/-EV but in the context of an overall range make our value 3bs more valuable, but against most people who don't adjust, don't even care, or don't pay attention imo it's just FPS that is -EV. Like we have a lot of threads here on a weekly basis where OP is 3-betting hands like 75cc vs UTG raiser or like 95s BB vs BTN vs tight players or even LAGs.

Last edited by Minatorr; 08-12-2018 at 01:13 AM.
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