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A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on

09-21-2018 , 05:16 PM
New table just opened so no real reads on opponents. These hands all happened within an hour. Also sorry for the longish post, just figured it'd be easier to do them all in 1 thread instead of posting multiple threads.

When you answer if you could just state if your answer is about "Hand 1" or whichever that'd be great so I don't get mixed up lol. I put a lot of parts in spoiler tags in case people want to give advice before seeing the results. If you think any of my thought process about a hand is wrong let me know so hopefully I can correct it in the future.

Hand 1:
Hero 260$ with TT utg. Hero raise to 15$, 2 calls. (main villain is an older man and has about 220$)

Flop: AJTr
Hero?
Spoiler:
Hero bets 25$, 1 call


Turn:
Spoiler:
complete brick 2h, Hero bets 55$ villain calls.


River:
Spoiler:
Ad, hero?


Results and my thoughts:
Spoiler:
Villain has a little less than a pot sized bet left as his stack. So I ended up shoving. If we check and he checks back we lose value from worse hands and there are far less hands that beat us here. If we bet and he shoves we can't fold and if we check and he shoves he was in good position to put me in a tight spot with a bluff so I feel like I can't get away from this.

We block AT and considering preflop I don't think villain has AA or JJ. A2 possibly for runner runner boat but also unlikely. Only logical hand seems to be AJ. I feel by betting we get more value considering he may call with QK or any other Ax and it seems like there are more hands to get value from here than hands we lose to. Unfortunately he had AJ. I feel this one was played okay but not sure.


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Hand 2:

Hero 300$ with TT utg+1. Utg limps, hero raise to 15$, MP raise to 50$, CO calls, hero closing action calls. (3bettor has 150$~ after his raise, caller has 180$~ after his call)

Flop: 954r
Spoiler:
Hero checks, MP goes all in for 150$~, CO folds, hero?


Turn:
Spoiler:
Hero folded, no turn


River:
Spoiler:
Hero folded, no river


Results and my thoughts:
Spoiler:
Ended up folding but I think it's the right move at this point even though we have an overpair. Though i feel villain could do this with AK considering we only flat called his 3bet, he can easily have JJ+. My main question here is do I fold this pre? I figure I'm closing the action and its 35$ to call which makes the pot 153$~. Though I feel as if I'm basically set mining so it may be to wide of a call with the stack sizes.


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Hand 3:
Hero 300$ with KhQd in bb. Utg folds, +1 raises to 12$, 4 calls, hero calls.

Flop: Kh5d3d
Hero checks, checks to button who bets 45$, SB calls, hero calls, rest fold. (both villains have about 180$~ after their bet/call)

Turn:
Spoiler:
8h. Checks to button who shoves, SB folds. hero?


River:
Spoiler:
Hero folded turn.


Results and my thoughts:
Spoiler:
Seems like a standard defend from BB here especially with all the money already in the pot. The flop is a standard check. Button could be bluffing with his positioning or have a weaker Kx, the SB calling is a little concerning though. Don't think I can fold just yet here. Call to reevaluate on the turn.

Turn is a complete brick and button shoves. Now I don't think he's too weak considering he's shoving into 2 opponents. He could definitely have a set or 2 pair, maybe even AK. SB gets out of the way (assuming was on a draw). Since btn doesn't seem too concerned about 2 pair or a set it seemed like it was definitely a fold.


-------

Thank you for any/all advice!
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-21-2018 , 07:30 PM
Hand 1 is totally standard. Well played OP.

Hand 2 is dependent on your reads on the Main Villain. What's his age? Is he tight preflop? Have you seen him 3bet before? If he's an older gentleman who limps a lot of pots, and never raises, then this is probably a fold preflop. We're just not deep enough to set mine. As played, against a standard LLSNL player, I'm calling off on the flop 100% of the time. He's showing up with overcards here a lot of the time.

Hand 3 is very poorly played in my opinion. Why would you think he ever has AK here? Wouldn't he raise AK preflop to thin the field a little bit? Imo youre giving the BTN way too much credit here. He sees 4-5 players check to him, so he thinks his KJ,KT,K9s is good here. So he bombs the pot to deny odds to flush draws. When you check call, he is probably putting you on a flush draw. When he bombs turn it's not because he has top pair beat, it's because your betting line is so weak that he probably puts you on a flush draw, and wants to deny you the odds to draw out on him. I also disagree with your assessment that checking flop is standard. We should be betting flop and looking to get all the chips in the middle. We have a very strong hand for this board. Are you really that scared of a 33 or 55?? This is a losing thought process. We're not deep enough to have to worry about stacking off with TPGK. If he has a set, you just have to let him stack you.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-21-2018 , 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aisrael01
Hand 2 is dependent on your reads on the Main Villain. What's his age? Is he tight preflop? Have you seen him 3bet before? If he's an older gentleman who limps a lot of pots, and never raises, then this is probably a fold preflop. We're just not deep enough to set mine. As played, against a standard LLSNL player, I'm calling off on the flop 100% of the time. He's showing up with overcards here a lot of the time.
Table was fairly new, but he was an older man with greyish hair and after this hand for the rest of my time there he was playing extremely straight forward. Still doesn't mean he couldn't have bluffed here.

Quote:
Hand 3 is very poorly played in my opinion. Why would you think he ever has AK here? Wouldn't he raise AK preflop to thin the field a little bit? Imo youre giving the BTN way too much credit here. He sees 4-5 players check to him, so he thinks his KJ,KT,K9s is good here. So he bombs the pot to deny odds to flush draws. When you check call, he is probably putting you on a flush draw. When he bombs turn it's not because he has top pair beat, it's because your betting line is so weak that he probably puts you on a flush draw, and wants to deny you the odds to draw out on him. I also disagree with your assessment that checking flop is standard. We should be betting flop and looking to get all the chips in the middle. We have a very strong hand for this board. Are you really that scared of a 33 or 55?? This is a losing thought process. We're not deep enough to have to worry about stacking off with TPGK. If he has a set, you just have to let him stack you.
I didn't think he had AK but I was just saying it was a possibility but yes very unlikely especially with him being the button and just flatting pre. Some people don't like to 3bet AK because they think it's a drawing hand (which is a stupid reason obviously) but I see it a fair bit at 1/2-1/3. I understand I under-repped my hand here but this is also probably the same way I would play a set. Early position check to the raiser, not sure why I should donk here. Maybe if I was going to take this line I should check/raise instead of flat? I understand it's multiway but most likely somebody is taking a shot at this pot.

If it was heads up I could see him bombing the pot to get me off a draw or better hand. Against 2 players though he needs more fold equity. Why would he want to push us off of a draw on the turn? Doesn't he want us to chase? Plus he has to assume we aren't both on draws and one of us has a piece of it. But I do agree in hindsight I should have called because I don't think he's jamming with a set. Don't know the villain but I can't see what 2 pair he could have here unless they played something like K5s/K3s.

Last edited by Phraust; 09-21-2018 at 07:55 PM.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-21-2018 , 07:48 PM
In general posting multiple hands is discouraged. You get better answers and the discussions don't get confused.

Hand 1: Standard against an unknown opponent.

Hand 2: Fold preflop. 3 bettor doesn't have enough money for me to be interested. Against a known maniac or spewtard calling or shoving could be OK. Once you see the flop make a read and go with it, many villains are shoving 100% of hands at that point.

Hand 3: OOP I probably don't even bother defending with KQo. With that many people flopping one pair will be super treacherous and the pot is going to be bloated. After that I'm making a read on the flop. Either I think button is wide enough to call a turn shove or I'm folding flop. Something could happen on the turn to change things but I'm setting my plan on the flop.

By the time you get to hand 3 you should have some idea about villains. An hour is enough time to at least get some information about how many hands they are playing preflop and what they are doing post.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-21-2018 , 08:24 PM
I think the check/call line is fine. Leading the flop is also fine. Once we check/call flop, I think we need to go with the hand on a brick turn. Villain shouldn't have any two pairs here, and rarely shows up with AK. He has way more KJ and KT combos in his range than AK,55, or 33.

I've observed a fairly common leak of 1/2 players is to overplay top pair on two-toned flops. A lot of players will perceive the check/call line on this board as being a flush draw. They have lost too many pots to flush draws, and they'd rather win the pot then and there. I've seen players shove 3x pot on the turn because they are so scared of the draw hitting. This is obviously an extreme case, but I do think the general sentiment is common.

I would say he sometimes shows up with a set, sometimes he shows up with AK, but more often he shows up with an overplayed Kx. That's how the combinatorics works. We only need to be good 1/3 of the time to call turn, and I think we probably are.

Last edited by aisrael01; 09-21-2018 at 08:51 PM.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-22-2018 , 06:24 AM
hand 1 played fine

hand 2 with no reads fold to the 3 bet
stacks not deep enough to set mine

hand 3 fold pre
as played
I'm calling flop
and leading turn
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-22-2018 , 08:01 AM
Hand 3:
Without the K and the fact that the pfr isn't the one betting flop and shoving turn makes this a call for me on the turn. Villain can be 1: bluffing with the nut flush draw and 2: "value betting" KX here.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-22-2018 , 10:44 AM
Hand 1: cooler

Hand 2: Fold pre or GII

Hand 3: 3-bet pre
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-23-2018 , 05:50 AM
Hand 1: Raise and get it in OTF. Calling is awful no matter what villain has.

Hand 2: Fold pre. As played fold flop. Old men don't raise to 17 BB pre without JJ+.

Hand 3. Bet fold half pot OTF. This is not a hand we want to be playing for stacks OOP especially when villain can easily have AK. Check calling off your stack is bad and I don't usually advocate donking out into the preflop raiser, but this is a WA/WB situation. We need to find out if villain has AK, AA, or KK immediately.

Last edited by 6MaxLHE; 09-23-2018 at 05:57 AM.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-23-2018 , 10:44 PM
Hand 1 is well played.

Hand 2 I would think about in one of two ways: either my opponent is a nit and only 3 bets big pairs and the only reason I'm calling is to set mine, which I can't do because I have to call $35 to try to win his $150 stack so I'm only getting around 4:1 set mining odds when the bare minimum is 10:1. Or he is a crazy 3 bettor and I am calling to snap his shove on many flops.

Hand 3 I would fold preflop if I was on my A game. I don't think this is a good situation for KQ. On the turn you have to call $180 to win $207, so you're getting 1.15:1 which means you need 47% equity. Playing around with equilab it's actually a close decision but I think it's a call. If the button has any K or a nice draw then he has to feel good about his chances of winning the pot. Really comes down to your read of the player.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-24-2018 , 01:10 AM
Hand 1: on AJT, I tend to go bigger to get maximum value from all pair + gutshots that can continue on the flop. Most people will feel obliged to call once with a hand like A8s w/ BDFD too.

As played I like sizing down around half pot on the turn as you did to at least keep him fairly wide.

Edit: didn't notice stacks. Yeah shove is good. Get the max from AK/AQ/KQ that all get stubborn.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-24-2018 , 01:17 AM
Hand 2: hate it. Folding to the three bet pre is fine. Calling the three bet to call off a shove is fine. But calling the three bet and folding this flop isn't. This board changes little besides a few lower pairs making sets. You're still beating AK/AQ/random crap. If you're calling pre, it's because you think he can have random crap.

Really I think just shoving it in beats calling to call off. But calling to call off beats calling to fold flop.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-24-2018 , 01:20 AM
Hand 3: folding here is 100% out of the question. Like, there's 72 in the middle. He bets 45 and there's a call. You have top pair good kicked on a high low low two toned flop where there's less than a pot left after your call. Shove it in on the flop. BTN has plenty of worse hands that can call you off here.
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-24-2018 , 02:57 PM
H1:

I now think the best reason to open TT in EP is to make it easier to play for stacks postflop if we hit. Other than that, I think limping with it (to possibly reraise) is fine. As played, SPR is about 5ish. A handful of cards could kill the action. This this the kind of board you're either getting action on or you ain't. Weak Ax might eventually fold, but unlikely to the flop bet. So with that in mind, I PSB+ the flop to setup a turn shove.

Next time post pot sizes on each street, but looks like you are going for stacks in 3 streets instead of 2 (I'd prefer a less drawy board to do this), which is ok. On the river we have a 3/4 PSB left. My first thought is just to shove, although if he has an A he'll likely bet it himself, otherwise a check does allow him to bluff a busted draw. Although he has enough pair + busted draw where we should likely just shove ourselves so he doesn't check those behind.

Given the SPR and the flop, the only way either of you weren't losing your stack is if a scary K/Q rolled off.

GcluelessNLnoobG
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-24-2018 , 03:02 PM
H2:

Another reason limping/overlimping hands like TT in EP is perfectly fine (imo) is that we can often have the odds to call a raise that'll go multiway and just ~setmine, whereas if we face a 3bet we'll have to fold and we just forfeited a bunch of money to do so without even seeing a flop. Against these small stacks and a 3better that ain't getting out-of-line (any reads?) this is a pretty easy preflop fold as we're not getting setmining odds.

As played, unless this guy is getting out-of-line, I would fold. Even AK often just gives up here given the coldcaller and the fact this went 3ways.

GcluelessNLnoobG
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote
09-24-2018 , 03:09 PM
H3:

I would have called KQs, but KQo just plays so much worse multiway in a bloated pot OOP. If raiser is really raisey we could think of light 3betting, but otherwise I just muck it preflop. Completely remove the term "defend" from your preflop thinking, imo.

Flop is a tough spot. Multiway, I might just lead out here to protect what could be the best hand, but even that can be meh since I'll often be betting into better hands and then what OOP if they don't raise (facing a raise makes it an easy fold typically). As played, we have some guy on the Button betting 1/2 PSB on a drawy board when checked to and then a check/call. We only have a ~PSB left at this point, so I think we have to make up our mind right now if we're going with that hand or not (fold or shove, imo). Given this sizing, I probably lean to a shove.

Tricky turn spot given our play on the flop as Button is likely putting us on a draw and thus could easily be shoving with worse. I think I call simply because I don't think big hands bet so little into a big multiway pot on the flop.

GcluelessNLnoobG
A few 1/3 hands I'd like advice on Quote

      
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