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Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG

11-07-2013 , 08:43 AM
1-2 NL

I just moved to the table about 3-4 orbits ago because BF insisted it was an amazing game. When I arrived, it was not amazing, however it was still decent mostly due to the following V.

V is super, scary, sloppy, stupid LAG. Mid 30's. On the heavy side but not a total slob. Wearing a cap and comfy poker pro like clothing. Raising at least 50 percent of her hands she was dealt and limping with almost every single other hand. Murdering people at the table with mediocre and sometimes trashy hands. I'm yet to see her show down a bluff, but I have seen her over value weak hands and scoop pots with them anyway. She's made some "sick" calls I suppose, and it is possible she has bluffed and not been caught. It seems everyone is gunning for her and she has on a bullet proof vest.

Although fairly new to the table, I am sure my image is tight. I have only played one hand, I called a straddle in LP and folded when I missed.

hero has 300 V covers (like has some ridiculous amount)

V open raises in MP to 12, hero in LP makes it 35 w/ AK

(73)JT3

V checks, I bet 55
Should I have bet less, or perhaps not bet at all? I think she pretty much never folds here. She has called huge bets with nothing, so my bet does pretty much nothing at all except bloat a pot.

(183)T
check,check

3
V bets 100

Thoughts?
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 08:52 AM
What are you trying to accomplish with your bet? Are your trying to make the villain fold? Are you betting for value?

If you are trying to make the villain fold, what sizing do you need to use to accomplish that? If you are convinced that the villain and is never folding then this size is way too much.

If you are betting for value, what sizing do you need to use to get called by her portion of her range that is worse than your hand?

I think you can approach this one of two ways. First, just check it down and turn your hand into a bluff-catcher if she bets.

Second, bet small on the flop. If we induce here to check/raise, then we can just be done with the hand.

Against this particular player profile, I think checking back the flop and bluff-catching is the optimal line.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 09:09 AM
I am still kinda new at this and I was just caught up in the moment.

(slow down and take a breath next time)

I should have checked.

Do you just give up when you played the hand wrong and she bets 100 OTR?
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 09:16 AM
Thinking back on it a little more, I was setting up for a shove OTT if an Ace, King, Queen or heart fell. This is also not good play I think. I guess I was really caught up in the moment and not playing well. I got up after that hand.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 09:22 AM
Check call flop and turn. You are looking for strong value to take advantage of V's excessively aggressive approach.

As played, I have no idea. I probably fold, but our check OTT show enough weakness, V might stab. If you suspect a river bluff, a hero call might be in order.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinche lupita
Do you just give up when you played the hand wrong and she bets 100 OTR?
No, because now we are only really ahead of the straight draws that missed. We got to chop with all other Ax combos in her range now. If the board did not pair, then yes I would likely call.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 09:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinche lupita
Thinking back on it a little more, I was setting up for a shove OTT if an Ace, King, Queen or heart fell. This is also not good play I think. I guess I was really caught up in the moment and not playing well. I got up after that hand.
You to remember that you are never a favorite to turn a favorable card for you. So you have to plan around that.

I totally missed the fact that you had a gutshot to the nuts. I blame the coffee for not kicking in yet. You have to check this flop back here because your opponent is capable of c/r and blowing you out of the pot.

I am only going to bet this flop with my hand against a loose-passive player who is not capable of c/r. I am going to bet small, around 1/3rd of the pot.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 09:51 AM
Yet another example why I think 3-betting AK pre in a cash game is just spew. You've bloated the pot and are now all but commited to a c-bet with two overs and a mighty gutshot (ooo! I almost forgot the all-powerful BDNFD).

As played, I think your only chance to win is to bet closer to psb otf and barrel the turn (repping QQ/KK). Of course, this opponent will probably just call you down with KJ or whatever broadways she likely has (broadways that likely hit, unlike your broadways). Betting less otf as you suggest is just burning money, for the same reasons you already listed that your cbet was ineffective.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinche lupita
She has called huge bets with nothing, so my bet does pretty much nothing at all except bloat a pot.
This logic in this sentence is flawed...do you see why?

You played this hand fine/standard. $45-50 otf probably accomplishes the same thing. (We want lots of fe + not to get c/r)

I might call river unless she is terrible enough to do this with a jack or like 77, which she probably is.

But like even $100s are just so often bluffs. And I'm a station.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
This logic in this sentence is flawed...do you see why?

You played this hand fine/standard. $45-50 otf probably accomplishes the same thing. (We want lots of fe + not to get c/r)

I might call river unless she is terrible enough to do this with a jack or like 77, which she probably is.

But like even $100s are just so often bluffs. And I'm a station.
Yeah all of this...and if she is going to just call 100% pre we can even go bigger there.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 11:02 AM
Hand is played fine.
C-bet is good, you have a tonne of equity against calls. Bad run out to bluff catch imo.

I would probably fold river, she'll value bet thinly. We have ace high a lot here.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls_horn
Yet another example why I think 3-betting AK pre in a cash game is just spew.
In this spot, flatting is not that bad because we have a suited hand and we want to encourage muliti-way action. I would still raise, but I can sort of see your point.

But if we had AKo then flatting is just terrible. We can get called by worse hands in her range, which is theoretically a solid reason to bet.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls_horn
Yet another example why I think 3-betting AK pre in a cash game is just spew. You've bloated the pot and are now all but commited to a c-bet with two overs and a mighty gutshot (ooo! I almost forgot the all-powerful BDNFD).

As played, I think your only chance to win is to bet closer to psb otf and barrel the turn (repping QQ/KK). Of course, this opponent will probably just call you down with KJ or whatever broadways she likely has (broadways that likely hit, unlike your broadways). Betting less otf as you suggest is just burning money, for the same reasons you already listed that your cbet was ineffective.
What. V has been opening lots of hands and playing lots of hands and showing down weak holdings. Flat calling is so so bad.
We are massively ahead of her range preflop and on the flop and in position!

3-bet is good, c-bet is good. If villain is calling c-bets with nothing then c-bet is obviously good. What we haven't seen is V showing any bluffs, but value betting thinly. Given this, c-bet is good as we have so much equity, betting turn is bad because we never fold out better vs station and have good equity vs worse, calling river is bad because V bets thin but doesn't bluff very often (maybe).

We don't want to pot flop, we might have actually sized it a little large.

Turn bet would probably be bad as V is pretty stationey with their hero calls.

River is a fold because villain bet's her weaker holdings that beat us in this spot. Raising is bad because she's a hero call station.

It's absolutely fine to bet with an equity advantage and it not turn out great for us. What we shouldn't do is hero call rivers where we beat very little or multi-barrel spew bluff vs a station in the name of us deserving to win the pot because we had the better preflop holding and V is a lagfish.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulls_horn
Yet another example why I think 3-betting AK pre in a cash game is just spew. You've bloated the pot and are now all but commited to a c-bet with two overs and a mighty gutshot (ooo! I almost forgot the all-powerful BDNFD).

As played, I think your only chance to win is to bet closer to psb otf and barrel the turn (repping QQ/KK). Of course, this opponent will probably just call you down with KJ or whatever broadways she likely has (broadways that likely hit, unlike your broadways). Betting less otf as you suggest is just burning money, for the same reasons you already listed that your cbet was ineffective.
i disagree with this. The 3bet preflop set up nice stack sizes to get it in with top pair on the flop/turn. As played you missed the flop against a total spazzy lagfish. I think I give up normally in the spot on the flop. As played you have a tough decision. Whats her range on the river? Im going to assume she is folding her complete garbage but continuing with roughly 40 percent of her range preflop. Lets say her flop calling range is AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J9, J8, J7, AT, KT, QT, T9, T8, T7, A3, K3s, 34s, 35s. AK, AQ, KQ, K9, Q9, 98, 97, 78. Seems about right, calling with any pair or any gutshot or up and down. She could still have any one of these hands on the river given the action so you are ahead of- all draws that dont include an ace ( 94 combos)
you are behind all jacks tens and 3s ( Jacks- 84 combos Tens- 54 combos
threes- 14 combos) and chopping with AK and AQ (20 combos) Based on pot odds you need to be good 35 percent of the time here. Ignoring the chop pots, based on ranges you are good 40 percent here. I call river.

My mistake I missed the 3 combos. Its 36 percent and now pretty close. If she is ever just floating the flop and calling with like 76 or random hands then bluffing the river, its a call.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:04 PM
Hand is played fine. There's only a couple of draws that missed and she's already been shown to value bet thin so river should be a fold. The best adjustment we can make against this type of player is to 3-bet thinner for value(AQ, AJ, KQ, KJs, ect.)
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timjcarroll81
i disagree with this. The 3bet preflop set up nice stack sizes to get it in with top pair on the flop/turn. As played you missed the flop against a total spazzy lagfish. I think I give up normally in the spot on the flop. As played you have a tough decision. Whats her range on the river? Im going to assume she is folding her complete garbage but continuing with roughly 40 percent of her range preflop. Lets say her flop calling range is AJ, KJ, QJ, JT, J9, J8, J7, AT, KT, QT, T9, T8, T7, A3, K3s, 34s, 35s. AK, AQ, KQ, K9, Q9, 98, 97, 78. Seems about right, calling with any pair or any gutshot or up and down. She could still have any one of these hands on the river given the action so you are ahead of- all draws that dont include an ace ( 94 combos)
you are behind all jacks tens and 3s ( Jacks- 84 combos Tens- 54 combos
threes- 14 combos) and chopping with AK and AQ (20 combos) Based on pot odds you need to be good 35 percent of the time here. Ignoring the chop pots, based on ranges you are good 40 percent here. I call river.

My mistake I missed the 3 combos. Its 36 percent and now pretty close. If she is ever just floating the flop and calling with like 76 or random hands then bluffing the river, its a call.
This is assuming that V bets her entire range on the river (she doesn't). You also missed a tonne of PP's V will have and will bet for value.

River is a fold. She value bets thin!!
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:14 PM
We need more read of hero's image, via pictures.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:33 PM
I think there are more bluffs in V's range than people are giving her credit for.

Our check back on the turn showed weakness, so V's line could very well be float the flop, get a sign we're weak on the turn and steal on the river. This would be consistent with the idea that her opening range is 50% of her hands (and her hero calls suggests she might be a bit station-y and be calling the preflop 3-bet light)

The board double pairing also reduces the likelihood that her (possibly trash) holdings have sucked out on us.

So, we're worried about a J,T,3 and smallish to medium PP.

We have to call 100 to win 283. I'm leaning call here.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambre
This is assuming that V bets her entire range on the river (she doesn't). You also missed a tonne of PP's V will have and will bet for value.

River is a fold. She value bets thin!!
ah good point i did miss the pocket pairs. Didnt have my coffee yet. And you are 100 percent correct if she is value betting pocket pairs here this is an instant fold obviously. That adds a lot more combos to the beating us category. I disagree that she isn't bluffing her entire missed range on river though.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:53 PM
Why are you betting flop? Just want to hear your rationale, not saying it's good or bad.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia
This logic in this sentence is flawed...do you see why?

You played this hand fine/standard. $45-50 otf probably accomplishes the same thing. (We want lots of fe + not to get c/r)

I might call river unless she is terrible enough to do this with a jack or like 77, which she probably is.

But like even $100s are just so often bluffs. And I'm a station.
I don't think we have that much FE vs the described V. Which isn't a bad thing.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambre
This is assuming that V bets her entire range on the river (she doesn't). You also missed a tonne of PP's V will have and will bet for value.

River is a fold. She button clicks thin!!
IFYP
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 12:58 PM
One read missing from the OP: What has OP been showing at showdown when she is calling down this much action? It's one thing to say she loves the bet button; it's another to think about her calling range.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinche lupita
Do you just give up when you played the hand wrong and she bets 100 OTR?
I'm not sure if you meant your comment this way or not, but whether you played the hand incorrectly on earlier streets has nothing to do with your decision here. Make your best play based on where you are, not how you got there.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote
11-07-2013 , 01:31 PM
As played fold river.

Mistake is not doubling the turn. 10 pairing is a scare card. Bomb the turn.
Female SSSSLAG vs female TAG Quote

      
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