Hey guys, my normal game is 2/3 100bb cap and basically I am losing faith in myself because I feel unable to do much when I get lots of multiway action. $20-$25 raises frequently go 3-5 way to the flop and it gets horribly frustrating when I am not hitting flops.


Question is should I increase my raise sizing even larger to try and thin the field more or is it just a matter of simply waiting until I start actually hitting these flops? I know I am generating ev by simply playing stronger ranges than most of the field but it just feels so bad to lose pot after pot and feeling like I really cant do much about it. Any advice?

Learn to live with it. There is often no raise sizing in these games that thins the field. One sometimes goes from a 3-5 way pot with a raise of X (whatever the table sees as the top of callable), to just getting the blinds or getting shoved over by premiums with a raise of X+1. Even if there is, such a raise sizing is often as handcuffing as the multi-way pots.

If the game you're playing is like most of these "no fold 'em" games, once they call pre, they are usually sticking around with any reasonable piece of the board. This handcuffs you, but generates insane value when you hit TPGK+. Value bet them to death when that happens, and usually just check/fold when it doesn't. Sure, you're handcuffed, but they are golden handcuffs. It's not very interesting poker, but it's extremely profitable.

I wish I knew where to find games with this much action.

Me too.

Moreover, I really like multi-way play for a few reasons. 1) helps you overcome the rake. 2) it's usually easier to figure out what a given player has. 3) There are a lot of dynamics that people who might be OK with things like pre-flop selection are bad at. 3 A) a lot of people do not adjust to the pot size. 4) You will often be in something of a race with another player and bring along a third player who is totally screwed.

So, just get better at that stuff. e.g. learn when you can buy a turn card and occasionally take it down by betting 1/8th pot. Or learn the positional aspects of multi-way play. Bart Hanson talks about them a lot.

Obviously, if people are calling anything pre, just be an OMC. Not so much to thin the field, though, as to get lots of money in when you have the best hand.

Yeah, pretty much everything Garick said.
You can’t miss forever and you’ll make up for it by being aggressive when you hit.
I was in a game yesterday where I had to start sizing lower pre because I was only taking the blinds and that’s just not nearly as profitable as multiway pots when you take them down.
Another tip I recommend is topping up your stack when you lose the first 30-40% of the max buy in. I had to do this a couple times yesterday when I was extremely card dead for several hours, but ended up having a winning session when I won a few good pots near the end.
It’s extremely important to have as many chips as you can for when it turns around. Rebuying is essential strat in cash games.

Another overlooked benefit of playing in this type of game is that your thinking opponents are also handcuffed. When a decent player donks into a 6 way pot he is maximising his return but it allows me to safely fold 2nd pair or worse (and probably top pair) where otherwise I would have to construct elaborate and balanced defending ranges.

My game plays like this.

I combat it by (a) being extremely tight (especially in EP/MP) and (b) almost never raising preflop (limping to limp/reraise with all this huge dead money, the possible exception being in LP where I'm sometimes forced to raise but even then an overlimp with a big hand isn't horrible).

It's extremely "boring" poker, and you'll win like one hand every few hours, but your goal is for that hand simply to be a monster hand (getting in all your chips when best either preflop or by the flop at latest) and meanwhile not losing any chips by loosely splashing around in maximum raked pots with everyone else postflop.

Gsomethingtoconsider,imoG

Although counterintuitive, you should consider actually lowering your raise sizes so that the SPR is higher and there is more maneuverability postflop where you can exert your edge. These sorts of villains just don't care about the price preflop and will call if they like their hand regardless of sizing. All larger raise sizes do is commit you to playing straight forward, which is fine if all you want to do is play AA/KK and stack off with low SPR, but I think there is a better way to deal with these loose/passive players: play a wider range, pound value, and make them fold postflop.

Interesting strategy. Are you only limping hands with intentions of re raising? Or do you limp/call with playable hands like Suited broadways and pocket pairs as well?

Open to 10 w more hands or just choose a range of hands to open shove. Don't limpcallcheckfold.

So, the glaring downside to GG-type strat is that any remotely competent player is going to have an easy counter-strat pre and post by stacking off with better post and folding optimally the rest of the time against a range with zero/near zero bluffs. When you limp, you leak and leak until you hit. Getting stacked is also devastating. This isn't an indictment entirely because most players at these games are the worst in the world so you can do whatever you want.

Don't shove pre, just saying, you either play fewer hands and are then allowed to open to 15 from certain spots, or more hands and open to 10, or play nothing but the tightest hands and open to 20. The rest of the time, find the right line post. That's the hard part, not preflop.

As I say, I'm playing quite tight, especially in EP/MP, especially at a typical aggro table where ~every hand is $15+ to see a flop. So in EP/MP my range is kinda 77+/AQ+/ATs+, so a decent part of that range I'm limping to limp/reraise (depending on who's doing the raising and calling). I'm really only playing more speculative hands in later position (where there is a better chance I'll be able to get into a pot for cheap and/or I'll have position).

As for Amanaplan's counterpoint, I'll let you decide what the better spot is against the better opponents. Would you rather take down a decent sized dead money pot rake free and risk free preflop by having them correctly fold to our limp/reraise (noting that they don't always make the correct play and these times are hugely profitable)? Or would you rather see a multiway bloated pot OOP to these good players (having gotten in a very small percentage of our stack preflop with the majority of it left for postflop)? If you're having difficulty using the second method, you may want to consider the first method.

"Finding the right line" postflop OOP to good players in a bloated pot is a lot easier said than done (and, imo, most lines in these spots suck anyways and it's mostly a matter of choosing the least suckiest line, although you are free to disagree). Preflop is your opportunity to set yourself up for a postflop situation you can be comfortable with / handle well (which will aid greatly in a hand's profitability); don't underestimate it's importance, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I know it sounds trite, but stop getting frustrated.

As long as you're getting your money in with at least two of the three major elements of pf poker (Hand Strength, Initiative, Position), you're going to win in the long run. With experience, you'll be able to shake off the run bad until you start pulling out the winning hands. You'll start focusing more on playing right than winning the hand through luck.

FWIW, the session that I played the best in my life is one where I ended up losing a 1/4 of a buy in. Most players would have had to cut it short because they went through their stop loss or would have dropped 4-5 buy ins. When you stop measuring how good a session was by how much you won vs. how well you played, you'll be on your way.

Y'all know that when you take the blinds down, you pay either zero rake (in no-flop no-drop games) or minimal rake (dollar for the jackpot always taken), right? Taking down the blinds is a coup.

But to the main strategy point for the OP: Multiway pots are harder to win because bluffing, including semibluffing, is so much less effective. Being out of position in a multiway pot really sucks.

So tighten up preflop, especially as your position gets earlier and earlier. "Tighten up" means play fewer combos than you would in a tighter game. And choose those combos carefully. AKo is marginal, AQo is crap, and AJo is poison. You want hands that play better, with more versatility, postflop. Even though you are cutting SPRs by raising, implied odds are a real factor. QJs, for example, is a lot more attractive than AQo.

When you do open (or when you do raise a limper) try to have a good idea of how many players are likely to trail in after you, and size up accordingly, by adding a big blind for every expected caller on average. I.e., instead of a 3bb open, if you reasonably expect two or three chuckleheads to trail in after you, size up to 5 or 6 bb, but do so with the understanding that you are going to be out of position for the rest of the hand, you will have to be giving up on a lot of flops, and larger opens expose you to exploitation by frequent three-bettors.

Yes, you are going to have to give up on the flop a lot. The pot is protected by the presence of these stationy chuckleheads. But you can gain an edge that you don't get to have in a head-up pot: you can occasionally bet your nutted draws for value, if enough stations are in the hand who will pay to see a turn card. This is best done in position, and it can turn into a disaster if an aggro player raises, so it takes some judgment to decide when to try to pull it off. But if you iso'ed a limper with KhQh from the CO, and BTN flat calls and both blinds and the limper are along from the ride, and the flop comes Ah 7c 4h, if you have eight clean outs to your nut flush, you are breaking even if you bet and get two callers, and additional callers are profit. (Another flush draw will cut into that profit by their blockers.)

Protected pots suck. Playing out of position sucks. Do your best to avoid situations where you are playing protected pots out of position, unless your cards are sufficiently favorable to make up for this.

You play online OP? It's common for online players to get frustrated with live poker and one of the reasons is multiway pots.

Online you get a lot of hands where you raise with a comparatively wide range of hands, take it down pre or go HU to the flop, then cbet when you hit or the flop is dry and take it down.

Live you end up in a lot of multiway pots and you miss the flop and have to x/f. Or you hit top pair, bet, get called by one player and raised by another, you sigh fold, caller has a flush draw, raiser limp called T7s UTG, flopped bottom two and decided to go with it.

You have to learn to embrace it. Yeah you will x/f a lot. You will bet fold some of the time you hit. But when you bet and take it down, you got $100, like 33bb in one hand. When you hit a big hand, sometimes you will stack a fool and win 120bb+.

The keys are patience, adjust expectations and tighten your raising range. Use all that spare time to pay attention to what other players will raise the flop with and what they will felt with.