Villain in this hand is an old guy, lively, enjoying the game, playing a lot of hands and playing them passively. Enjoys the role of table bluffcatcher, calling with marginal value. $280. Has raised preflop maybe twice in two hours.

Villain raises to $12 UTG. Hero ($220) thinks and makes a loose call in CO with A9 . Blinds call.

Flop comes J33 . Villain confidently bets $20. Hero calls.

Turn Q . Villain bets $25. Hero calls.

River K . Villain snap-shoves.

Hero?

why wouldn't you raise turn if he is the table bluff catcher and incapable of folding?

if he is generally a passive opponent, then it doesn't look like he is shipping here with anything less than a full house when there is a flush possibility, and there are virtually zero smaller flushes in his range.

What were you "think"ing about when you called preflop? This is an extremely easy fold, imo. We're either hugely dominated, or unlikely to get paid off if an A hits and he doesn't have one. If we knew it was going to go very multiway (say with at least a caller or two in front of us), then we could probably get in there for multiway value, but we don't know that. Got off lucky going 4ways to the flop, imo.

Next time put pot size on each street (so we know what kind of immediate odds we're getting / can get a feel for bet size).

Even though board is paired, I also can't fold my draw getting these good of odds (we're getting well over 3:1 thanks to the < 1/2 PSB bet).

On the turn, if we just call, we'll only have a PSB left on the river. Would we be able to fold to a shove on the river? The answer is "probably not", so we're committed, imo. I would raise the turn now before another kills are action or another Q/J and possibly A/K kills our hand. His turn bet is pretty small, but it still puts $115 in the pot with us only having $190 left. I'd probably shove, especially since he loves to bluffcatch.

As played, on the river we have the nut flush with only a ~PSB. I think we're committed in spite of the fact he can easily have a fullhouse here. Just have to hope for enough AA and other big TP or top two type hands.

GcluelessNLnoobG

fold pre

I would have folded pf for sure but as played I would raise the flop. V appears to have slow played JJ/QQ/KK. He has a tight range and it looks like you're smoked.

His shove is ~165 into 135ish? I would fold without much thought. These overbets looking at a flush on a paired board are FH exclusively barring some complete tard tendency of the villain.

This is such an important topic that i put up a utube video about it.

<<<< Folding>>>>>

When he shoves, i think he thinks 1000% that he is best. Now us? We are hating life right here. Which hand is most likely ahead? Its pretty easy to see when you really shake it all out.

If those numbers are close, then we have to be good 35% the time. I really doubt that we are even close to that. More like 5-10%.



And yes, fold pre too.

I think the analysis hinges on whether a 75-year-old villain would raise 12 UTG with KQ. My read was that he would not, and that if he did he would play the flop differently. Given the snap-shove, it looked to me like AA was reduced to 20% likelihood (why wouldn't AA bet more on the turn if he was that comfortable with it?). That left three each of KK, QQ, JJ, or else he was off his meds from the git-go.

Results to follow.

Not raising the turn is pretty inexcusable....

most of your equity was on the flop, that would have been the time to raise. If there is no club on the turn, we would have lost some equity (and FE).

Part of my thinking on the turn was that bluffcatchers like to call rier bluffs, not two streets' worth of bluffs. And I wanted AK to have a chance to get there.

I would expect a value bet from AK of course on that river, but not a value-shove.

On the flop I didn't raise because I thought there was a good chance he'd shove an overpair, whereas I can see the river fairly cheaply. He did not like folding to me, that was already established.

Hero tanks and tanks some more. Folds face up.

Geezer plotzes, jumps up, runs halfway across table to see the flush, runs back and tables AJ.

Later says, "I didn't know if the King hit you but I just figured Go for it."

Ni Han sir.

And we levelled ourself out of a pot.

It was discussed in another thread already, but in my experience, snap-overbet-allins are typically bluffs from non-thinking players.

Unless he has JJ, QQ, or KK, r some rando x3 combo, then where's the fist pump snap call?

That fold is more gross than my A5 fold a few weeks ago.

usually at these limits the opposite is true.

don't be results oriented. a passive opponent with no history of aggressive play just over bet shoved the river on a paired board with a possible flush. there is no chance in hell that this is indicative of a hand with sd value turning their hand into a bluff. and there would need to be some serious evidence from past play to even make this a call worth considering.

Thanks, Chao, I agree with you. I still think the fold was correct.

gotta be a sigh-fold here, passive player taking a line like this is a boat too often for u to call

also, not really a fps hand: you call pre with position and so-so hand, flat flop because if he has jj+ (which is a resonable range for a passive player to have at this point) u havee a few outs, on turn, u call because u somewhat have showdown value against his range at this point, river is fold cause he has a boat 90%

The FPS was just in the fact that I folded.

As played, this is a pretty gross decision on the river. He's shoving $165 into $138, so were getting 1.84-1. So we need 35.2% equity. As you described the villain, I think his range here is JJ-AA, AK, and maybeee KQs. I don't think he raises anything else pre and keeps firing like this.

So if you think he can shove AK and KQ on this river:
Simulated 100000 Holdem Hands (Monte Carlo)
Simulation by Slice - The ev++ Equity Calculator
Board :: J33QK

Player	Equity	Win Hi	Tie Hi	Combos (Natural:Reduced)/Total	Range
1	60.6	60.6	0.0	(1:1)/1326	Ac9c
2	39.4	39.4	0.0	(44:23)/1326	JJ-AA, [A]K, [AK], [KQ]

Ez call

But if you think he's only shoving JJ-AA (you only beat AA):
Simulated 100000 Holdem Hands (Monte Carlo)
Simulation by Slice - The ev++ Equity Calculator
Board :: J33QK

Player	Equity	Win Hi	Tie Hi	Combos (Natural:Reduced)/Total	Range
1	25.1	25.1	0.0	(1:1)/1326	Ac9c
2	74.9	74.9	0.0	(24:12)/1326	JJ-AA

Then its a fold. I don't think folding is horrible, as this range seems more likely

But seriously, try to get it in on the turn vs. the more combos of AA and KK than there is QQ and JJ

That's extremely helpful, thanks.

I don't think this kind of player shoves AK on the river in this spot. Not to say they shouldn't, but they don't.

And I don't think this kind of player so comfortably cbets a whiffed KQ four ways on the flop.

So I'm feeling better about this decision.

Weird game, huh? After all we're discussing "this kind of player," but for at least a second this particular player was completely out of his t*ts.

His range is way wider than JJ-AA. Hate the fold.

Did you take the time to read the villain description? If not, plz do. This type of villain's opening range is 1010+, AK, and maaaaybe AQ. And 1010 never plays this way post flop, nor does AQ and most of the time not AK. So plz tell me ur reasoning on why his range is wider than JJ-AA by the river with this action...

This spot is a lot tougher than it seems, because I've seen a lot of looser older players believe two pair on a paired or flush possible board is the nuts. The over shove though sends some alarms off, but only slightly. He's betting on the flop so he has a made hand, so I would discount a flush in this player type. So trip 3's or queen jack, or King Jack seems likely. Sprinkled in with the occasional JJ or KK, or QQ and even AA seems likely. I really think you have to pay him off here. If you've been observing him long enough you should have seen him play a similar two pair hand by now and seen how he bets it. I even think AA could be likely. Call and reload if he actually wakes up with a monster, I think your hand is too good to fold in this spot.

Again, these tight-passive players never ever open wide in EP. So what 2-pair hand can they possibly have?? And there are absolutely zero 3's in his opening range, just like there are zero hands that could possibly have a flush on this board since we have the A. I agree he can have AA here, but I've shown in an above post that it doesn't matter against the rest of his most likely range, its still a fold