Grunch

I like your aggression but you gotta know when to tone it down. I don't play LAG in 1/2 so I can't tell you whether or not the pre flop raise was bad or good...but it's not something I would do.

But the flop shove is burning money imo...all you're doing is taking a ****ty top pair hand and turning it into a bluff. So if V calls the absolute best case scenario for you is that he has a draw. But he doesn't. Live fish play their draws passively most of the time so for him to limp/call and then lead the flop he's got A7 crushed. This is a spew for you. Chalk it up as a lesson learned and don't do that anymore. Good luck.

110% yes with your image.

Then you are not a "solid regular.". You are the reason I work to develop that image (albeit not a losing one, on better days) by showing trash hands once every three orbits. If I make this move against you, after playing a few hours with you, I have Ax crushed.

All that said, I am trying to improve. I want to understand the ranges for V1 and V2 that make this play -EV. I admit SB probably can't fold AQ, but He also probably doesnt check it on the flop. So I still think 60% of the time I end up heads up against the flush draw and another 20% of the time both players fold. Admittedly V2 beats me like this 20% of the time, so, ouch, and damn him for not checkraising.

That means 80% of the time I get to show at least the 7, and then peddle the nuts for 90 minutes or so.

Any other ranges for villains based on the action so far, to change my thinking about this admittedly high-variance play?

He is not a fish, he is a "solid regular."

My bad...I misread your OP. Ok, well then yes he could be making a move on that flop if he feels that it did not connect with your range. But your play is still too risky and high variance for my taste...

You are giving way too much credit to "solid regulars". Image is everything at live poker. If you want to improve, you have to realize that.

To test this theory, just watch a table. Either rail or sit in and play nitty so you can see what I am talking about. Viewing the table objectively is the key. Watch when a player spews a couple of stacks trying to bluff. The entire table dynamic changes. NITs literally salivate at the mouth and change their entire game to try to get into a pot with the guy spewing off his chips.

It is really a pretty fascinating thing to watch how the psychology of everyone at the table changes.

Good advice...I'm going to apply this as well. Thanks

Tim, that's why I do it, especially in the daytime. Then I just need to get dealt a few real hands in the following couple hours. But again, this V2 is not calling $100 without a valuable hand.

I get that. But your perceived range is wide here, meaning you want to value bet. If you have a set, then I agree that a shove is 100% correct here.

You are leveling yourself here.

LLSNL players just don't fold top pair ESPECIALLY when there is a flush draw on the board because they will put YOU on the flush draw regardless if it makes sense for you to be on the flush draw.

You get looked up here by 80% of the LLSNL population with Ax. Period. I don't see how you don't get that. And all this "solid" talk is a red-herring. Even "solid" players can level themselves into calling just because there are so many fish out there that it makes calling +EV.

The worst thing you can do is think to yourself, "He's solid and respects my image therefore I can blow him off a hand when he donk bets me..."
Sometimes, sure that may be the case, but more often than not, its not the case.

I'm telling you dude, every single day I play, I see fish make horrendously bad calls and you thinking "Well, I can just shove here and take it down X% of the time because i'm so awesome and my villains tremble in fear whenever I'm at the table" is how you are going to end up lighting truckloads of money on fire.

So the only real question is, how many of these ******ed shoves are you going to have to do before you recognize not to try to blow donk bettors off their hands when you aren't strong...

Here is an exercise I'd like you to do. I'd like you to take a note card with you on your next session. I want you to tick off one Roman Numeral every single time you hear or see a villain make a bad calling when they "know" they are beat. Any hand, whether you are in the hand or not.

The other thing about image is that I'm amazed at how players don't use observable facts when assigning image.

There are some players that see me as a hyper LAG or nit or TAG or ABC or donk no matter how I play that session.

I think that is how we 2+2ers level ourselves. We think, "Okay, I showed that bluff so now the table has got to see me as a LAG..."

No.

Sure there are a "couple" of players that may see you as a LAG now, but for the most part, the rest of the table will just go on seeing you as they've always seen you... ANd lets not forget that 60% of the table are Level 1 players who simply don't care what image you have because they only care about their own holdings...

Hey dgi, in a typical session, how often would you try a legitimate bluff (you know, apart from a typical raise light to iso / cbet flop hoping to take it down, shutting down otherwise)?

I know this is opponent dependent, but I'm kinda guessing that if I lowered my percentage of legitimate bluffs to 0% that I wouldn't be too far off optimal at this level.

GseriouslyconsideringneverbluffingagainG

I agree with all that. It's just that V2 happens not to be an idiot, and V1's terror of getting bluffed heads up doesn't kick in when the pot is three-way.

V2 in fact is such a non-idiot that he donk-bet Aces up and got my stack. He knew he wasn't getting paid if I missed, so he went ahead and prevented me from playing pot control. Props to him.

Well, I c-bet probably 80% of the time but I don't consider that so much a bluff as I do standard play.

I never bluff turns with 0% equity with the goal of blowing someone off a hand when I sense weakness. One of the best things I did was take that out of my arsenal simply because villains don't fold enough.

I replaced that with semibluffs and I found that bluffing flop/turns with semibluffs and retaking the initiative against players that we've witnessed folding big hands is HUGE or who we know are scared money is highly profitable. I would say this encompasses about 5% - 10% of the hands I play and situations I'm in.

In terms of river bluffs when I whiff. They are a continuation of the above 5% - 10% and I only do them against villains I know can/will fold and in conjunction with river cards that help me put the pressure on. So about 75% of the time.

Turn x River = total bluff frequency
5% x 75% = 3.75%
10% x 75% = 7.5%

So, to answer your question, I bluff 3.75% - 7.5% of the hands/situations i'm in. That's about right and I feel its a good number and i've gotten really good results.

I also make it a point to "target" the right situations. I kind of view my image like a "nit bank". The more big hands I show, the stronger my image, the more I can "cash in" on that image when a big hand comes along. To be clear, I'm hardly ever stacking off on a bluff, that is pretty rare. But I'm taking down $100 - $300 pots with the semibluff/bluffs and that's a good value and use of my "nit bank".

One of the best things I did for myself was give myself permission to be out played.

Before, I would always have this fear of someone outplaying me. My ego would get involved and I would constantly be thinking, "Okay, how can I outplay villain, what sick poker move can I do to win this pot because I am awesome..."

About a year and a half ago, it occurred to me that poker is more than just the cards and that villains can beat me two ways.

#1) they can have better holdings than I have
#2) They can outplay me.

And my epiphany came when I accepted both of the above.

Sometimes, I will be in a situation where I have a strong hand and villain just makes an incredibly good play utilizing the perfect turn or river scare card. Perhaps its a perfect blocking bet or maybe a great bluff or maybe its a bet that will pot commit me and villain has indicated he is shoving next street...

When this happens, I accept it just as if V turned over his hand and showed me quads... And it doesn't matter if V was bluffing or semibluffing. I just "accept" that he made a great play and I have to fold...

I probably encounter this once or twice a session and I'm 100% fine with it.

I sense you may be having similar problems. I'm sure you are probably one of the better players in your area. In this spot, V's donk bet into you really is a good play. Rather than think "How dare he donk bet into me... I'm going to out play him. He doesn't know who he is effing with!!!" it would be much better to think, "You know what, great play by villain, maybe he has it, maybe he doesn't, but his bet puts me in too tough a spot to profitably continue so I'm going to let this one go and adjust to him next hand..."

food for thought.

Enjoyed your story but don't be too hard on yourself. Trying to bluff the unbluffable is soooo much fun.

the tricky part here is to not continue to play the part of the fish once you have the image of one

since utg sees you and sb as fish, and he is solid, he won't donk into you multiway with a draw.. he'll only do it with any strong hand he wants to stack off with, both for value and protection.

Noobs, UTG and I have played together many times and he does not see me as a fish.

DGI, that's an outstanding piece of advice and I thank you for making this thread worthwhile for everyone.

seems like a bad spot to bluff, esp since ur range appears weak to them

they will call with ax

also, squeezing with suited rags from sb is a leak

so the last time V2 donk bet into you he had 2pr?

alarm bells would be going off in my head the next time he donk bet into me.

No, THIS time.

Sheesh.

lol sorry, didn't see you posted results that he called with Aces up.

good play. i always like donking into the pre flop raiser with a range that usually has them crushed.

it would have been difficult for you to pot control this hand even if he did c/c the flop with stack sizes though