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Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Facing a turn raise with pocket eights

05-26-2019 , 09:49 AM
Since my last hand sparked some good discussion, I thought I would post another hand I played with the same villain from from this hand (please go read with hand if you have not already).

This hand occurs maybe ~1 hour later and I hadn't played any more significant pots with this villain in the interim. Hero starts this hand with ~1,650 and Villain covers.

preflop
UTG straddle. A few callers including Villain on the BTN. Hero in SB with 8c8d makes it 55 to go and gets 3 callers including Villain.

flop 2s2d5s (Pot ~220)
Hero leads out 85.
Everyone folds to Villain who calls.

turn 2s2d5s 9c (Pot ~390)
Hero bets 300.
Villain raises to 800
Hero ???

Would appreciate any thoughts but specifically wondering:
- flop bet sizing ok?
- should I lead the turn? is my sizing ok?
- obviously, what do I do facing the turn raise?
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 10:24 AM
Preflop vs lots of limpers i just complete with 88 in sb.

can't believe you are good here I let it go, Have to believe you get raised on the flop with a FD given last hand. could have 67os given last hand also.

I would adjust my strategy vs this guy and not inflate pots with mediocre hands oop
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 10:57 AM
no more than 1/2p turn, esp if you want to bet the weaker part of your range
you prob have to fold 77/88 and the lower fds
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 10:58 AM
+1 for just see a flop cheaply if oop with 88.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 01:08 PM
Turn is pure spew
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 01:35 PM
What a nice hand to check
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05-26-2019 , 01:41 PM
Call pre, check turn, and fold to c/r you're up against a 2 or 10s/JJ in my lowbrow opinion.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 02:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnyBuz
Turn is pure spew
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan
What a nice hand to check
This posts without any analysis or explanation are not really helpful. What sort of range are you putting him? What is your thought process?
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 02:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagodude
Call pre, check turn, and fold to c/r you're up against a 2 or 10s/JJ in my lowbrow opinion.
Calling pre-flop is fine, sure. It's obviously a +EV play to set mine here multiway. But I think raising is better. There is a ton of dead money in the pot due to the straddle and we are quite likely to have the best hand, but it's going to be very hard for us to improve and very hard to get max value even when we do make a set due to being OOP and given fact that nobody raised PF. E.g. if flop comes out A83 we may get 1-2 bets but we aren't gonna stack somebody b/c it's very unlikely somebody even has a very strong ace. So our implied odds are much lower than normal.

Re: turn - Why check here? And if you check what are you doing if he bets 1/2 pot? full pot? check/folding here is very weak imo on this fairly safe turn.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornToPun
This posts without any analysis or explanation are not really helpful. What sort of range are you putting him? What is your thought process?
How about...why did you bet? Why this size? What happens when you check? What do you want to do w one of your worse continuing hands against this player? Stack off? Show it down? Think about the rest of your range, what you can guess about this opponent, and pick a line that isn’t bet 300-post 2p2.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 03:30 PM
Seems like you have all the answers here. If you think 88 is the best hand pre and even after a flop raise just jam and let us know if his A3 hits.

Some people have explained that checking 88 in the blinds is the standard play. If you want to do it differently for reasons you outlined, that’s totally fine. But now you are in a spot where you are about to lose hundreds of dollars with second pair. I’m sorry some people are cantankerous and called you spewy, but the advice is ‘don’t bloat preflop’ and then ‘slow the f down when you don’t flop a set and V calls the flop’. Or just jam and let us know what he had.

Marsh
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114
Seems like you have all the answers here.
No, not at all. That's why I posted this HH looking for discussion. But they key word is discussion, not just people saying a line without any reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114
Some people have explained that checking 88 in the blinds is the standard play.
People have recommended checking but nobody has said WHY that is a better play. Again, trying to generate discussion here. I posted my thoughts on why I think raising is a good play (admitting that calling is also +EV) and I would love to hear somebody offer a counter to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarshMan114
but the advice is ‘don’t bloat preflop’ and then ‘slow the f down when you don’t flop a set and V calls the flop’. Or just jam and let us know what he had.
So are you just going into check/fold mode once the flop comes out and you didn't hit a set?
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanaplan
How about...why did you bet? Why this size? What happens when you check? What do you want to do w one of your worse continuing hands against this player? Stack off? Show it down? Think about the rest of your range, what you can guess about this opponent, and pick a line that isn’t bet 300-post 2p2.
not sure what you mean by "300-post 2p2" maybe that is a typo.

I bet flop because I think my hand is good here very often (not impossible but pretty hard for someone to have an overpair to my 88) but also very vulnerable to tons of turns, especially 4 ways.

I bet turn because I think I still stand to be good against this particular villain, this turn is mostly a blank, don't want to give him a free card, and because if I check I think he's going to double-barrel me with a lot of worse hands and it's going to be hard to call twice especially on a lot of rivers. i didn't consider it at the time but perhaps going for the c/r-fold line has merit.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ionutd
no more than 1/2p turn, esp if you want to bet the weaker part of your range
you prob have to fold 77/88 and the lower fds
Suppose he called flop with a flush draw - almost every flush draw has either a gutshot or at least one overcard now so betting 1/2 pot is basically giving him direct odds to call even if check/fold spade rivers.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:23 PM
You’re missing the gray area here. If you check preflop, bet 25 flop, check turn and face a $70-100 bet, then sure. Peel one off on a read.

But you’ve created a situation where it’s a huge pot in a very tough spot. I’m not good enough to play the hand the way you did and know what to do. I also think 2/5 players are value heavy here so I probably fold.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:25 PM
On your position I would go for a call PF to control de pot OOP. You have a vulnerable hand and too deep to end it flop or turn with an allin.

Once you go for a raise, it seens that you could go bigger.
The straddle makes it $10. It seens that you have more than 4 callers, and by playing OOP the sizing should go bigger than normal to punish the ones that wants to call and give em worse odds.
I think $70-$90.

As played I also think that a flop bet should go bigger. Half pot minimun to protect your vulnerable overpair and aiming to get a call from A5, 45, 65, 75 and FD.
With this bet many overcards can be paying with the right odds (K9, A9 included).
Turn I would go for a smaller size. 5s are not calling a 3/4-Potsize bet. Same for 66, 77.
I’m not sure what you are targeting here.
Better hands will call and worse hands will fold. I’d like a 1/3 pot Turn and reevaluate river.

But if you called PF the hand would have been alot simpler and you could be folding without investing that much money with a vulnerable hand OOP.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vini.barbosa
On your position I would go for a call PF to control de pot OOP. You have a vulnerable hand and too deep to end it flop or turn with an allin.

Once you go for a raise, it seens that you could go bigger.
The straddle makes it $10. It seens that you have more than 4 callers, and by playing OOP the sizing should go bigger than normal to punish the ones that wants to call and give em worse odds.
I think $70-$90.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I will say that I expected (having been at this table for a few hours) that my 55 raise would take it down preflop or narrow down to 1, maybe 2, callers. I was surprised when I got 3 callers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vini.barbosa
As played I also think that a flop bet should go bigger. Half pot minimun to protect your vulnerable overpair and aiming to get a call from A5, 45, 65, 75 and FD.
With this bet many overcards can be paying with the right odds (K9, A9 included).
I've gone back and forth on this. my thinking was that there's going to be lots of hands that just whiffed this flop and they'll fold to any size bet, whereas anyone with the nut flush draw isn't folding even to a 3/4 pot size bet. But yeah i think you are right, something like 125 is probably better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vini.barbosa
Turn I would go for a smaller size. 5s are not calling a 3/4-Potsize bet. Same for 66, 77.
I’m not sure what you are targeting here.
Better hands will call and worse hands will fold. I’d like a 1/3 pot Turn and reevaluate river.

But if you called PF the hand would have been alot simpler and you could be folding without investing that much money with a vulnerable hand OOP.
My idea was that a lot of the drawing hands he might have called with on the flop are not folding to 1/2 size bet and in fact are getting close to direct odds to call. So I went bigger targeting those hands. If I bet 1/3 pot I'm not sure I fold out any draws nor do I extract max value from them. I suppose I do get value from some PPs but those might call a larger bet anyways.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:42 PM
What is the buy in for this game? You've been pretty active to have gone from the felt to $1650 in an hour.

Your image should be bad at the moment since you lost your stack before. You're not going to get a lot of folds with raises. You would have been better off completing pf. As played, I think you're assuming too much consistency out of an erratic player. Just because he raised you last time on the flop with a gut shot doesn't mean he's going to only raise you with air. However, the decision doesn't change. If you are going to call, you have to call the all in on the river on a blank. Winning poker is not calling for your stack with second pair.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:44 PM
Your line reps a big hand, his line says he can beat a big hand, do you believe him? I just fold here TBH.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10
What is the buy in for this game? You've been pretty active to have gone from the felt to $1650 in an hour.

Your image should be bad at the moment since you lost your stack before. You're not going to get a lot of folds with raises. You would have been better off completing pf. As played, I think you're assuming too much consistency out of an erratic player. Just because he raised you last time on the flop with a gut shot doesn't mean he's going to only raise you with air. However, the decision doesn't change. If you are going to call, you have to call the all in on the river on a blank. Winning poker is not calling for your stack with second pair.
Buy-in is 1k max.

Based on bold would you recommend jamming turn, or just calling turn and then calling all (or just some?) rivers. Why not just jam turn though?
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 04:51 PM
Still trying to figure out why the turn bet is so bad? I agree it's too big but a smaller bet ott seems good to me
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-26-2019 , 05:00 PM
This hand is akin to torching money. Please complete pre.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-27-2019 , 04:18 PM
Not sure if this will get much more attention so I'll just post my final thoughts and results.

Spoiler:
So here was my thought process facing the turn raise. I don't give this guy credit more than just a few overpairs give he limp-called preflop. I definitely think he is coming in for a raise with any pair 99+. Occasionally he'll turn over pocket 5s here but I think he plays the majority of those as just calls on the river. Same reasoning for the 1 combo of quads.

So what other hands can he have here? He can definitely have some twos in his range with hands like A2 suited and maybe a few combos of K2 suited or some low suited connecter hands like 23 suited or 24 suited. But there are only 2 combos of A2suited out there, and I'm not giving him credit for every combo of K2, 32, or 42, suited.

How many 9x hands does he have here? Coming into the turn I think he has a decent number when you account for ~8 combos of 9Xss, plus I think he can occasionally float me with a few random hands even without spades. basically I think he'll float me where with some fraction of all of his hands that completely whiffed, since he is last to act on the flop and everyone else has folded and he has position on me, he may call my small-ish flop bet intending to bet if I check turn. HOWEVER, once he raises my turn bet, I think his # of nines shrinks drastically. If he floated me with, say, A9 or T9, he's almost certainly just calling as I have lots of better hands in my range and it's very hard for him to get called by worse.

flush draws? This is weird because I fully expect him to raise the flop with most of his flush draws. However, given the pure # of flush draw combos he could have called preflop with, there's still a significant amount of flush draws in his range here even if he raises 75% of the time. So I definitely have to say there are some flush draws in his range.

Lastly, let's just call it an "other" category. Given my read of villain he definitely has some significant component of just random hands here that he's making a play with. Hard to say exactly how many, but given how few combos of everything else I think there are, it doesn't have to be very many in order to constitute a significant chunk of his range.

Not gonna go through the exact math/combinatorics, but in sum I think his range is weighted heavily enough towards flush draws + random hands that I can justify getting it in. But since given that I can't improve easily on the river, that I'm OOP, and that I don't really know which cards I need to dodge, I think jamming here > calling. Occasionally we're gonna get snap-called and be drawing basically dead, but that's poker.

So I jammed for about 700 more and here's what happened.

Spoiler:
He doesn't snapcall. Perfect. He goes into the tank for 2-3 minute and is talking about how this hand is so weird, what can I possible have, etc. etc., but the pot odds are so good he wants to call. Eventually he does the "this is a dumb call" while dropping chips over the line and we're off to a river.

River comes out As. My heart pretty much sinks. Weirdly I wasn't even worried about the flush, I just somehow knew he had the ace. He turns over
Spoiler:
A5 offsuit and we lose a ~3400 pot


Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-27-2019 , 11:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BornToPun
not sure what you mean by "300-post 2p2" maybe that is a typo.
It means that if you're betting 300 on the turn w 88 you better know why and know what you're doing on all the outcomes including him putting stacks in play. Instead you bet a fortune, shipped, and he still stacked you with one of the worst possible hands he raise-calls with (obvious given the tank). Of course this is an unfortunate result, but its not like even a player like this doesn't have an array of better hands that also do this, and when you bet 300 you preempt/strike out all bluffs/bluffing ranges. He wasn't even bluffing, just protecting his pair or some fish logic with 55. You weren't that far off from the same logic blasting 88. I'm all for fish stomping, but you really had a great hand to check and still stomp with against a player w lots of moves thusfar.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote
05-27-2019 , 11:51 PM
This sounds like a game that would pay my mortgage.
Facing a turn raise with pocket eights Quote

      
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