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Old 08-12-2013, 04:32 PM   #26
The Rumor
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

Because the type of villain bad enough to shove a set isn't the same as the type of villain who bluff shoves. The first one says, OMG I HAVE A BIG HAND AND I WANT TO GET IT ALL IN. The other one is just clicking the bluff button like they saw on the teevee. Those are two very different actions from two very different player types.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:35 PM   #27
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

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Originally Posted by dwf1029 View Post
I see people spaz out and make terrible bets all the time. I agree it can be aces valuing because they are afraid of seeing a turn card. I also think it can be Ak, kq or a guy just making a stupid bet. I see your point of view also, I don't love calling here but I'm calling anyways
you are partially correct, it defanatly "could" be a lot of hands, but we need to go with what it is MOST of the time. If you make this same call 100 times, are you going to be ahead or are you going to be broke?

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I feel like if he is bad enough to just shove a set then why give him credit for not being bad enough to just spaz out
it doesn't have to be a set two pair beats us and AA beats us.

I would like to know what Villian's stack is, and more about his tendencies to make this call. if he is very deep, maybe he could be trying to push us off of TPTK but with the information at hand, I would fold.
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:42 PM   #28
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

Well, to be fair, two pair is pretty unlikely here unless V is raising a ton of hands pre
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:20 PM   #29
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

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I wouldn't donk bet this hand vs a LAG if I flatted pre. I can almost guarantee he c bets with a wider range than he calls your donk bet with.
+1

Why on earth are we donk betting here on this board???

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I feel like if he is bad enough to just shove a set then why give him credit for not being bad enough to just spaz out
This is exactly how thinking players level themselves into making horrific calls for stacks

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Because the type of villain bad enough to shove a set isn't the same as the type of villain who bluff shoves. The first one says, OMG I HAVE A BIG HAND AND I WANT TO GET IT ALL IN. The other one is just clicking the bluff button like they saw on the teevee. Those are two very different actions from two very different player types.
+1

Just because villain may be bad in one area doesn't mean he is bad in all areas. This is a mistake I see thinking players make all the time. They notice villain has a leak: i.e. villain check/calls a turn shove on a draw without proper odds, and then they extend that to a completely non-related area: i.e. they level themselves into thinking that villain is c/r bluff shoving river with a line that makes no sense...

V turns over a monster and then Hero levels himself into thinking, "Well he could have been c/r bluff shoving so my call is still +EV..."

when no, no its not...
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:22 PM   #30
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
Well, to be fair, two pair is pretty unlikely here unless V is raising a ton of hands pre
Folded around to button ... He could easily raise K7 or K3 suited OTB. Also, he's a LAG, so, yeah, he's probably raising a ton.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:20 PM   #31
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

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Originally Posted by The Rumor View Post
I wouldn't donk bet this hand vs a LAG if I flatted pre. I can almost guarantee he c bets with a wider range than he calls your donk bet with.
Yep, betting the flop is a large mistake. We play right in the lag's hands when we do that. As Ed Miller would say, by betting the flop in this spot you lose the battle of information, you're letting an aggressive player off the hook by letting him know where you're at right away. Good lags love that! They get away cheaply when they're weak, and they can punish your checks in later hands with that same weak range knowing what your check likely means: a hand you don't really like that much that will fold to pressure.

More money is to be made here by playing meekly and inducing the aggressive player to bet with a wider range instead of betting the flop and watching them fold their air and continue with a much smaller range.

Also with an spr of 7.67, this can easily be a spot where we turn a profit when all the money goes in PROVIDED WE PLAY MEEKLY and induce the lag to bet with a wider range, whereas when we take an aggressive line on the flop, thus tightening the lag's range, we probably lose money when it all goes in with the same spr! IMO, understanding THIS dynamic is one of the keys to crushing this game.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:35 PM   #32
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

this is the reason why it's called a "donk" bet*



*there are times when it's correct to donk out, but this was not one of them.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:00 PM   #33
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

grab your chips and move them close to calling line.... say "do that again and ill stack you" then fold.. easy game
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:27 PM   #34
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

fold find better spot
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Old 08-12-2013, 11:59 PM   #35
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

3bet pre, cbet for value, call shove
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Old 08-13-2013, 12:44 AM   #36
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Re: Facing a shove with AK TPTK

Maybe I am wrong here and I should tighten up a bit. I do find myself sometimes talking myself into over calling, but at the same time i find people make a lot of bad bets. I think not 3 betting the hand has made this hand tough to play. This has been a good convo, good to hear different points of view. I call vs a tard and fold vs what I think is a competent player.
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