Live 1/3 $300 max full table - 9 handed

Just sat down, seen 2 orbits. V1 is older Asian lady and V2 is middle aged middle eastern guy.

V1 ($335) opens to $10 UTG+1 (played 2 hands since I sat down)

Folds to V2 ($550) (seen about 50% of hands since I sat down) who calls

Hero 3-bets to $45 with AcAd in SB

BB folds, V1 calls, V2 folds

Flop
8c7d3s ($99)

Hero bets $30, V1 calls (and says "the bet is too small")

Turn
5c ($159)

Hero bets $60, V1 calls

River
5s ($279)

Hero bets $100, V1 jams $200 total, hero calls...

My question is regarding my line, sizing, and going for 3 streets of value.

I'm a break even player over the last 5 years of playing recreationally, but recently have got very serious about my game and making a go of it semi-professionally. This is why I posted this hand. I seem to find myself in these situations a lot over the last 6-12 months. I don't know if I have a major leak with regards to these situations.

Initially I put my opponent on a range of PP's, suited Broadway aces (ATs+), and Broadway suited connectors (JTs, QJs, KQs).

I bet $45 pre flop, not wanting to lose both players, but didn't want to bet so small that both players call while being OOP, and to build the pot some.

Then bet $30 on the flop wanting to keep my opponents entire range in.

Then bet $60 on the turn for the same reason.

Finally bet $100, looking for calls from 99-QQ, since I think she would 4-bet KK and AA, but not entirely sure on KK, I've seen a lot of players at this stake just flat premium PP's and AK. Plus I have blockers to AA, AK, AQs, AJs, and ATs.

I generally bet small on the flop and/or turn with most of my range, which I think allows me to keep my opponents range wide when I have value hands and allows me to draw/bluff cheaply when opponents fold too much on the flop and/or turn. Then generally bet larger 60-80% of pot on the river with a ratio of about 2:1 value vs bluffs. I think in this hand I probably should have stuck to that strategy on the river with an all in bet. I'm not entirely sure. That's another reason I'm asking this question. At the time I didn't think V1 would call with all her over pairs to a jam.

I apologize, this got longer than I anticipated. Thanks for any help.

i think check turn is better

Pre looks fine, nnm
flop is pretty dry not much out there a few SD but in my mind I am getting 2 streets of value here.
I dont mind the flop cbet too much could be a little bigger but that really depends on villians tendencies of peeling one off.
turn card doesnt really change the action the straight got there and if he had pocket 5's good for him but I think a check back to get some river value might be a little better here.
river card is a brick and think 1/3-1/2 PSB is what you want to do.
as played he shoves over you I would make a crying call here and expect to be good maybe half the time.
I would expect to see a few boats,maybe a straight but I can also see some TPTK, over pairs here as well to makenit worth the call

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

In my experience, value is more easily extracted on the flop and turn. Ed Miller has written extensively regarding opponents folding too much on the river where large sizing can be used to exploit. With your smaller sizing what happens when you are raised in these spots? Generally, B/F?

I’d go at least $45 on flop. Hero blocks overs like AJs+, nevertheless the opponent may call in hopes of picking up BD equity.

Once they call and the turn brings BD clubs, I’d go ~70% pot. Hero blocks NFD, but a hand like KcQc will call, along with over pairs.

River action is dependent on the opponent. As played, not folding.

I'd probably 3bet just slightly larger ($50ish) to offer poorer setmining odds (especially since we won't be able to fold postflop in this small SPR pot) plus help make up for the fact we're OOP, but it's no huge deal.

SPR is 2.5 and board is slightly drawy with the straight draw. I'm not looking to drag this out over 3 streets, so I PSB the flop to shove the turn. We also get max value ASAP from overpairs / draws not willing to fold to the first bet (but who could perhaps sometimes eventually fold to the second bet). I agree with your villains comment.

If I've done the math right, we've left ourselves with just $165 left in a $279 pot, so the river should be a trivial shove at this point. However, we could have easily gotten stacks in on the turn had we PSB the flop (which would have left just a $155 shove into $300 on the turn).

The overriding consideration for me regarding betsizing is whether we feel committed.

Thanks to preflop and setting up a very small SPR of 2.5, we should feel 100% committed and looking to get our stacks in. On bone dry boards, and/or against opponents who could be induced into bluffing, I'd be more fine with attempting to do things in 3 postlfop streets, although by the time the river hits you'll see so many possible better hands you'll often have a hard time shipping in the last of your chips. So even on dry boards (let alone wet ones) I'd still lean to trying to get the chips in ASAP (again noting that the flop is where we're going to get paid off the most as TP / draws typically never fold to one bet so we're losing value here by underbetting).

If we don't feel committed (let's say we're hugely deep and the SPR is like 12 or whatever) then sizing down our bets (or even checking) is fine. But you shouldn't be doing this when committed, imo.

ETA: Really surprised by the other comments. The SPR is fricken lol 2.5; if you're not getting stacks in you're doing something wrong, imo (SPR 2.5 means stacks can go in with 3 lol bets of just ~40% PSB or just 2 very reasonable bets of ~70% PSB).

GcluelessNLnoobG

Am I understanding correctly. With an spr this low, which will be the case the majority of the time, I should be looking to get in by the turn against the stronger parts of her range, which still contain a lot of hands that I'm ahead of? What if the spr was larger, say 8+, should I then be trying to get value from her entire range?

What are some general guidelines regarding post flop play with various SPR's? Such as if SPR < 2, generally jam the flop, opting for more equity denial. Or SPR >5, generally bet smaller looking for value from a wider range.

SPR isn't an exact science and obviously there is a lotta grey area (ex. PNLHE hates SPRs of 13 and yet I personally think they are great for TP hands), but mostly with overpairs/TP lean towards commitment as the SPRs get smaller (ex <= 5, the sooner the better on wet boards) and lean towards not-committing / pot control as the SPRs get bigger (ex. >= 12) and also realize that SPRs inbetween can be troublesome for these hands (where we won't feel committed and yet our opponent can commit us fairly easily, such as being OOP in an SPR 7 pot). Also obviously dependent on other factors such as your opponent (such as whether you feel bet/folding vs them even in arguably semi-committed spots), the board, etc., but a lotta times if the SPR is very small or very big then that overrides the other considerations (i.e. very small commit, very big don't commit).

Gjustsomethingtotakeintoconsideration,imoG

Meh

Bet/calling the river for that sizing doesn't feel great but it's fine, pretty hard to take this line with aa and fold now

Flop sizing is awful
Turn sizing is less awful but still a bit small
Sizing on the river is ok. Going for value is reasonable, if hero goes with the smaller sizing on previous streets can't checkback such a strong hand on the river


Also since you are thinking about being a semipro the most important thing is going for fat value postflop with good hands. The flop and turn sizings are disastrous leaks and going to hurt your winrate a lot.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of the replies is that I should be looking for bigger value on the flop from a tighter opponents range, such as $65-$100, such as overpairs to the board and the occasional float from AK and the like. And not trying to keep my opponents range wider by betting smaller. Thus be ok to take the pot down on the flop more often.

Of course, there is no way to truly know how wide she will call a flop bet of $65-100, but I have to think it is going to be substantially tighter than vs a flop bet of $30. Don't i want those very hands with little equity continuing rather than folding to a flop bet?

The reason i bring this up is because the hand that she eventually showed down was considerably low equity, even on the turn. But it's a hand that I think she folds on the flop to a larger bet. And almost definitely on the turn to a shove. But she may call a $100 on the river unimproved, thus creating greater EV than betting larger earlier?

Is my overall thought process just completely wrong? Trying to get greater EV from her entire range, rather than just the portion of her range that she calls a larger flop bet and/or turn shove? This is why I posted this hand, the hand itself is really not the focus, but the thought process is what I'm interested in. Thanks to those who have replied, it has really made me question my game in ways that I can't do with self analysis alone.

Or is this type of thought process just not good in a lower SPR pot, but more appropriate in larger SPR pots?

I still think that thinking applies more to higher SPR spots where we're not committed, where we're fine with tightroping between going for value against a wider range while not building a huge pot if behind and underrepping / etc. yet also cool with the side effect of sometimes allowing worse hands to outdraw us (which is more of a disaster in a pot where we're committed). And moreso on drawy boards keeping in mind that no one folds a draw for one non-outrageous flop bet (so we're missing huge value here in the easy peasy committed spots).

GimoG

I think the key to using SPR appropriately is as a gauge of commitment like you said. So it does make sense to go for earlier value on the flop with a larger bet so that I can comfortably jam the turn without it being a large overbet. Thank you. I'm going to start adding the SPR variable into my play so that I can plan the hand out better.