So I wanted this to be a bit different, I won't reveal my hand but I will reveal villain's. I want to know what you guys think villain should do.

1/2 NL, 7 handed, effective stack size $195 (players have me covered)
Hero position- hijack/UTG+2. Hero has played few hands and appears to be tight
Button straddle $5
BB, UTG (with 88), UTG+1 calls
Hero raises to 30
Button calls (button is a loose player that usually defends straddle and probably bluffs more than the typical 1/2 player)
BB, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds (these 2 are elderly players)

Flop (121) 4 4 5 (two clubs)
UTG leads for 60
Hero jams

My main question is how should UTG play this? Would you say that UTG should set mine here? And if he does, what should he do on the flop? I rarely find myself in UTG's position, so I would like people to critique his plays, not mine. What if I were a loose player? I just want to know how often should UTG stack off here and how should he play the flop?

UTG should raise preflop and make this question irrelevant.

Set-mining for $30 here seems bad. I think it depends a lot on your image at the table. If he sees you as loose, splashy and bluffy then calling the jam is fine. I would probably play 88 differently UTG in a straddle pot, but the way he played it is how most 1/2 players would play it.

The main leak here is yours though. You seem to want others to play their hands the way you think they ought to be played and that is not how to beat poker. You have to adapt to how they actually play their cards, regardless if you think it's wrong or right. You have zero control over others' actions, on and off the table, and it's your job to determine the best approach to their (flawed) style.

UTG shouldn't be in this hand, calling the raise is a mistake because he can't get odds to set mine. Flatting the first time may or may not be OK depending on how aggressive the table is and what stack sizes are in general.

Having made the call he should check and evaluate when you bet. If hero is really aggressive then a few calls to catch AK and other bluffs is OK but mostly fold to hero's likely flop bet. After the donk it's guess work, UTG has enough committed that calling vs hero's short stack is OK.

Koko has the major point though. This is a situation where you should not be looking at what UTG should be doing but rather what bad play he will make. If he is a passive station then hero should only shove big pairs, if he donk/folds then hero can shove anything.

I'm not sure how this hand displays any leak on my part. It was a relatively new player and I had KK and I feel my raise preflop was good as was my jam on the flop. He calls my bet and I win a big pot. The reason I made this topic was because I myself am not sure how to play 88 in this situation. I never said I wanted him to play a certain way, I wanted to see how he could have played it better.

Also I would argue that setmining for an additional $25 can be profitable. He's calling $25 in a pot that is already $90. He only needs other players to put in about an additional $160 into the pot to make it profitable long-term. That seems viable to me at least, especially considering I represent many premium pairs.

UTG should x/c. This is why donk betting is so stupid. He has no idea what you have and now he has to fold, wp.

btw when someone donks you should just flat with your strong hands (because theyre always bluffing) and raise with your air (because they have to fold).

So far he’s 0 for 3. Now he has to call it off getting such a good price.

Long story short, UTG is a fish.


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I actually think he should call since I’d expect
Hero to have hands like flush draws way more often than, say, aces/Kings that may want to keep some hands in on this board. Which is one of many issues with donk betting a texture like this

1) you don’t “find out where you’re at”, because hero can easily commit hands like ATcc, KQcc, etc and not really worry about it at these stack depths. At better than 3:1, folding the flop seems terrible given how much incentive hero has to stuff it here.

2) you define your range as mediocre hands: if you flopped 55/54/44/A4/etc, you’d probably want to let someone bet at it. At these stack depths, there’s absolutely 0 reason to fear a check through on the flop as you can comfortably get it in on turn and river anyway. A flop Donk screams “I don’t want AK to see a turn card and I don’t want to get bluffed”.

So yeah OP, assuming you showed up with a flush draw, a decent overpair (88-QQ, AA and KK without a club), or like A4s, nice hand. With board lock, you can slowplay. Else just stuff it in at these stacks.

And as others have pointed out, I wouldn’t focus on what our opponent should do with their hand. Understand that they are bad enough to show up with 88 here (like think of the convoluted logic: when no one has shown strength they take the passive action, but when someone has shown strength and a flop comes down that should favor that player, they take the aggressive action despite all the hands that beat them being available). Then understand the situation: we are at a shallow stack and should happily get in our value hands. From there, just understand the player and if we can also add some semibluffs to the repertoire.

These guys are poker idiots (pro tip: don’t assume your weak opposition are IRL idiots until shown to be true, just assume they’re trying their hand at a strategy game that they don’t fully understand). They are some of our favorite opponents because they are wicked unbalanced and predictable.

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10X is an absolute minimum for set mining to be profitable. Hero only has another $165 left and hero is the most likely opponent. To make this profitable villain has to expect hero to get all in 100% of the time. Including hands where hero has AK and whiffs. Having more people in this sort of hand can actually make it less profitable because people are less willing to commit without a big hand themselves.

A lot of good players won't go less then 15X on set mining. I will go down to 10X but only if I know the raiser is bad and likely to lose their entire stack every time I hit a set.

I wonder if its possible to win with 88 without having to hit a set vrs an overpair?

Sure. If opponent has a weak overpair like 99 and the turn/river run out K/A and you just drill it on every street.

Come play in my home game...donks rarely are almost never bluffs (sometimes second pair etc..), and often are quite strong (top pair/good kicker on dry board).

In a relatively short stacked game, people don't fold top pair...even with a bad kicker.

Makes the game sound easy...and it is if you're getting cards.

But if you try the moves you are suggesting, you will get eaten alive.

I don't disagree in general with your strategy, but I rarely find that donk bets are straight up buffs, perhaps top pair weak kicker, perhaps second pair, perhaps a draw, a weaker combo draw, but rarely out and out bluffs.

They're what you call "turning your hand into a bluff". They make worse hands fold and better hands call. Thats why fish love to do it.

UTG should raise pre, limping isn't horrific in weak games but 88 is good enough to raise. Call is meh. Donk is terribad.