1/3 live, hero has ~600 in stack, V has more than 3x that amount

V is on the button and button straddles to 6, 2 limpers to hero in the CO with K10 off. Hero limps, V raises to 25, all limpers call.

(Pot is 100) Flop is KK8 rainbow, checks to V who bets 90. Folds to Hero who tanks for a bit before calling.

(Pot is now 280) Turn is a 7, both check

(Pot still 280). River is inconsequential, something like a 2. Hero checks, V bets 165. What should hero do?

V is a middle age white guy. Read so far is he definitely knows the basics so not a total fish. But not much beyond that.

Call. Not folding, but what calls a raise?

I'd lead river myself. It's odd for a king to check turn, so we're almost always ahead here. He's got a bunch of good pocket pairs and some A highs that'll x back river a bunch and we miss value. Not enough players, especially MAWGs, bluff this river often enough for us to want to check to them, but they will call some bets. As played, just snap call. We're almost always good but only get called by better if we raise.

Snap call. But you should have bet river yourself. Also raise preflop to 25 yourself (don’t limp).

Unless you have a read that the villain(s) are going to bluff when checked to, it is generally better to bet the amount you'd call with. You gain initiative and set the price you're willing to pay. It sets you up to win some hands where you don't have the best hand. As played, call but expect to be beat over 1/2 the time.

Not a fan or the limp/call pre. KTo is a solid open from the CO.

As played, bet the river.

As played, easy call, imo.

Raise pre. I never limp or over limp pre but if I was going to this is not a hand I would do it with. Small pairs suited connecters and suited aces and suited kings are good candidates for limping. Not hands that have terrible reverse implied odds

I like betting river for 90 but as played its a snap call.

If we're beat then we're beat and this is an example of why preflop is so important. Don't play hands that can easily be dominated passively pre flop. Fold or raise

I'm actually ok with the overlimp preflop. It's pretty much at the bottom of my playing range (i.e. I'm folding K9o) so I'm just trying to sneak into a pot for cheap. If we had the button / less chance the button was perhaps going to defend his straddle (which will often bring along everyone else), I could get on board with a preflop raise. I actually fold to the raise. Yeah, we're closing the action but we're going to be OOP to the raiser and this hand is just too weak, imo.

I'm also check/calling the flop and checking the turn. I would have started hating life had he bet the turn, so I'm feeling a little bit better about it now.

River is either/or for me. I think we could bet quite small ourselves and hope to get a crying call from worse. But I have no problem weakly checking to induce a whiffed Ax into attempting to get us off a small pair. So as played, I'm happily calling the bet at this point. I'm not raising because I don't see how we get paid off by worse.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I don't love limping here. I'd rather raise myself, but I guess it isn't awful here, unless you were planning to fold to the squeeze. Since you call...still ok I suppose.

Was the turn 7 a pure rainbow, or was there a back door flush there? Checking is fine, but just asking for curiosity.

River, easiest call of my life. Sorry if he showed up with KQ/KJ. I don't love raising here as there is almost nothing they can have hear we are ahead of that makes a call. Maybe exactly AA/QQ, but I see queens go in the much a lot so it just feels like calling is giving us the best value versus running into a buzzsaw.

it is better to fold a royal flush than it is to call a raise with KTo. fold pre, the second time, overlimping pre is fine. Call the river.

Thanks for the reply everyone.

I think I'm just a huge nitty fish. When V puts a pot size bet into 3 people on the flop, I really thought V had a K, and in that case it's always a better kicker.

I guess the check on the turn should have meant that I was safe, but I may have just folded to a turn bet.

In the end, V said he had Ace high, and I got yelled/laughed at for being a tanking fish for taking that long to call on the flop and river.

I probably should have just folded pre but thought maybe I could see the flop cheaply since it is after all 1/3.

On what planet? Over limping is also awful if your intention is to fold to a squeeze. If that's the plan, just don't limp. Raise/fold

How is this awful? We attempted to take a cheap flyer in LP almost closing the action, it didn't work out, nbd.

GimoG

On any planet. Skalansky's reasoning for that quote was that the opportunity to fold a royal flush comes up very infrequently. In fact, it would make absolutely no difference to win your winrate what-so-ever if you folded every royal flush you ever made. On the other hand, the opportunity to call raises with dominated hands like KTo and the like occur at a very high frequency, and incorrectly calling with these hands will make a very high impact on your winrate.

Because limping with dead money is just asking to be squeezed, and limping in general is not a great way to play the game, especially in a straddled pot.

Bleeding away 2 BB for a hand we have no intention to play is just abysmal. Especially with a prime RIO hand.

People and their rhetoric...Sometimes I take things too literally.

He isn't calling a naked raise with KTo though. He is completing for 19$ into a pot of 81/85$, getting ~4.26-4.47: 1 on his money with no risk of action reopening. While RIO is a thing, he can also make some hands where his top pair is good, some straights and of course, trips. I think limping is such a bad thing to be telling newer players to do, but if he is going to play like this, and the action unfolds, I don't see the problem calling here and seeing a flop.

Your passive line so far may have convinced V that you don't have a K and that something less, like second pair, might actually be good. You have to call the river for this reason alone.

There are two lessons here IMHO: one, K10 is an awful hand to call a raise with and not that great of a hand in general. The simple reason is that it will make second best a LOT. I would rather call a raise with 87s; with that hand, I'll either hit the flop hard or muck--nothing in between.

The second lesson is that making an uber-passive play on the turn, with position, makes you vulnerable on the river because you won't know if V is betting into you because you showed weakness or he really has a hand.

This! All 3 of these make your life easier

Obviously the earlier position we're in the worse this becomes (not to mention the frequency which could turn a small leak into a big gusher), as there is too good a chance we face a raise (and not get to take a cheap flyer) and will end up OOP to many. But I think we're allowed to take some high percentage gambles for cheap once and while. Here, we only have one guy left to act that can possibly squeeze, and we'll know if it does limp around that we'll have position on the field minus one (although admittedly because of this we should in general be tightening up to button straddles regarding limping). It's not a horrific gamble; it didn't work out this time, oh well, fold, and next hand, imo.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Maybe as a veteran with the knowledge to not get attached to the hands, sure. But to suggest as a standard to newer players that this is a limp, is completely wrong. The one guy left to limp is also the person most likely to squeeze. Calling to see a flop is what the fish we are trying to beat do. Encouraging that, especially with a hand that has a near impossible time making the absolute nuts. Why not just raise and either put pressure on other weaker hands, or unlike super premiums, I am 100% ok taking the preflop down for ~6BBs.

This isn't like the A7s handed, which can make the nuts so while limping is still the worst option, you at least have some play with it.

I'll agree that if you're not experienced postflop that overlimping might not be great (especially since we're guaranteed to be OOP to the button straddle), so that's fair enough; but in that case I think it is a clear fold. Raising at these types of tables is just so unlikely to take things down preflop (this result certainly isn't unexpected), so building a bloated multiway pot with a marginal hand is basically just setting up inexperienced players to make bigger mistakes.

GcluelessNLnoobG

This I agree with. There's no way I'm getting a fold pre-flop once two people limp a straddled pot unless i raised to something like 50 instead of 25.

I basically agree with everyone that the correct play is to just fold. But I'm also a recreational 1/3 player who's happy to play a few more hands than GTO since I want to enjoy myself. I think I'd rather fix my atrocious post flop plays than just get super tight pre flop and only play top 15% of hands, even if it's not the most profitable.

There’s no problem with that. I do think that if you want to play a little wider range it’s still going to be better for you to play the whole range aggressively preflop.

Imo, if you want to fix your post flop game, you’re going to do yourself a lot of favors by always coming in for a raise pre and giving yourself the initiative in the hand. Under reppping your hands and playing passively is asking to be put in a lot of tough spots.

1) If you are looking tight, I wouldn't discount the possibility. Even bad fish as low stakes will recognize tight players.

2) Even when you don't, you might get the button to fold, which means you play the rest of the hand in position, and navigating post flop is fine.


What result? How do we know button 3 bet pops it back if we raise? Also, we still ended up in a bloated pot in mid position, the only difference being is that our range is capped and we have the aggressor behind us.

Well we can never be absolutely certain of results. But after 2 limpers and a Button who may defend his straddle, at loose tables it becomes less and less likely that a non-ridiculous raise is actually going to limit the field. So if that isn't very likely to happen, inexperienced players will likely be better off attempting to play a smaller pot rather than a bigger one with speculative hands (where their postflop mistakes will be less costly). Heck, even experienced players should be tightening up their "loose iso'ing" ranges as the number of limpers increases; KTo ain't exactly a powerhouse against multiple limpers.

And the result in this case (multiway bloated) was only the same because we called the raise (i.e. I wouldn't have and simply sacrificed my attempt at a cheap flyer). And even if you're in OP shoes and want to have some fun and play pots anyways, his overlimp with only one to react behind him will at least give him a fairly good chance at sneaking in for cheap most of the time.

I also don't think there is much benefit in having the preflop initiative in a non-shorthanded pot (as mentioned by someone else above). Admittedly stealing the button would definitely be a benefit, but the pros of this have to be weighed against the cons.

GcluelessNLnoobG

I think limping with the intention to fold to a standard sized squeeze is terrible poker and a huge leak, even if it's only 2BB. That's a lot of value to just be throwing in the dumpster. We are also in late enough position that I don't think even you would advocate limping premiums like AA/AK here. If the thought of playing KTo is not a comfortable one to do multiway, that make it find the muck.

It's completely different if V goes 35 and both limpers in between fold back to us. Shrug folding here is pretty standard. But when V goes 25 and both limpers call, my hand is decent enough with direct odds to at least see a flop. Obviously, we lucked out here, but we also had pretty solid odds to do so.

As far as initiative, what the heck are you talking about it? Being the aggressor in late position is the best case scenario, especially on situations where we don't hit trips on the flop.