As I mentioned earlier, limping in to fold becomes more and more of a leak the earlier in position we do it (mostly because we're more likely to face that raise plus we're guaranteed to be OOP to most). So I certainly wouldn't be open limping / overlimping this in EP/MP. So, yeah, I think you could label it as terrible in EP/MP due to the amount of times this is going to happen which is really going to put a dent in our winrate. But labelling it as terrible in LP is quite a stretch when (a) it is much less likely we're going to face that raise (especially second-last-to-act) and (b) we'll have position on most (while admitting that in button straddled pots we should be tightening up a bit in general), imo.

I don't like calling the raise here due to (a) the raise strengthens the ranges we are up against (KTo wants to be up against weak limping ranges, not stronger raise calling ranges), (b) we're OOP to the raiser and his dominating range and (c) the SPR is terrible (we want to play a high SPR pot, not a small one). All of this overrides whatever immediate odds we happen to be getting, imo.

Being the preflop aggressor becomes less and less useful as the amount of callers increases. In a 4+way pot, I'd argue it has little value at all.

GcluelessNLnoobG

It's still a leak, and not one we should be encouraging. It's fine as an exploit if you know there is a slightly greater than 0% chance someone will open behind. And if they aren't taking your line of limping premiums, it's even worse. The fact that you want to fold when closing the action and getting decent odds is enough to say that limping is wrong and folding is better if we don't want to open ourselves.

Do you not consider an SPR on 5.75 to be a high?

We're going to have to disagree whether this is a leak. Similar to the J9 thread, I simply don't believe it is a leak playing for very small percentages of our stack in position with speculative hands (so long as we don't suck postflop). In this case here, we overlimped for lol 1% of our stack with only one person left to act who could spoil our plans.

I've already stated why I feel overlimping is fine but overcalling the raise is not.

An SPR of 5.75 is most definitely not large and is actually quite small (as it will be trivial to play for stacks with small bets and commitment handcuffs all the decisions). I wouldn't consider anything under 13 large (where 3 large PSBs+ will be required to play for stacks and thus give us lots of playability postflop). A limped pot here would have created an SPR of 25 (where skill and position will often trump preflop card strength).

GcluelessNLnoobG

I don't think anything over 3 would be considered "small" SPR. 5.75 is on the high end of middling, and we certainly aren't committed and it is far beyond trivial to play for stacks. They only go in if we want them to go in, as goes by our river play.

We don't need an SPR to be that ridiculous to feel like we can fold post flop.

J9 thread is also completely different. We are on the button in a non straddle open pot. While I don't advocate limping, Button/Blinds is more acceptable, especially when we have absolute position.

Don't think you are going to find many who consider an SPR of 5.75 to be anything remotely close to large. Even moreso if the players in your game aren't using the cool kid sizing of 1/4 PSB - 1/3 PSBs, and even moreso in multiway pots (where a chunky bet and a call or two leaves very little behind).

For sure would rather have Button and also agree that we should tighten up our overlimping in Button straddled pots due to this reason. But I don't think doing this from the CO (where at least we'll have position on everyone else plus a decent chance we'll have position after the flop) is a terrible leak.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Ck riv was better than most letting on - if you're a rec guy and you have KT in this spot and you're good enough to check again, then you have to call.

Very much +1 on this.