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Extracting max value from hands Extracting max value from hands

04-24-2014 , 10:31 AM
So, I ve been having some problem stacking off people and I am wondering whether I can do a better job at it.

Hand #1. 1-2 table

Hero (~300). Haven't played any big pots yet. I ve won some, lost some, I am playing something like 25/12 in a table in which most people have a VPIP of 45-50 and a PFR of 5-8.

My standard preflop raise is between 8-10 with $2 added for each limper.

Villain. (~150) Relatively tight and somewhat thinking with a VPIP of 25.

Hero dealt TT UTG

Action:

Hero raises 8
MP1 calls 8
MP2 calls 8
MP3 calls 8
B calls 8
BB(Villain) calls 8.

Flop (48) T44

Hero bets 22
Mp1 folds
MP2 folds
MP3 folds
B folds
BB calls 22

Turn (92) A

BB bets 25
Hero calls 25

River (142)
BB bets 45 (has another ~55 behind)
Hero raises all in
BB tanks, folds

Observations. So on the flop, we have the nuts and the usual thinking is that we can check to let people catch up with us. However, with 6 people on the flop, I thought someone would have a flush that he would want to chase. I also thought that c-betting here would actually do wonders to disguise my hand and will allow me to bloat the pot and get some value in case the flush misses.

As it turns out, my hand was so thoroughly disguised that in the conversation that ensued, no one was able to guess that I had pocket tens. Villain however (who had a 4) was able to find a tight fold in him because my reraise on the river screamed strength.

What alternative lines could I have followed here?

Alt line 1. Check flop. Call turn bet from BB that was surely bound to follow. But then I think I am running into the same problems on the river with my reraise screaming strength. We d may be have another caller to bloat the pot though.

Alt line 2. Play flop the same, but mini raise turn. Then probably following a check by villain on the river, shove all in. Still screams strength I guess.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 10:38 AM
You did not say what came on the river. Was it a diamond? If it was not a diamond and he had a four, and the discipline to fold it, you might not have been able to get more. As of right now you've done a pretty good job of playing like you have a flush draw with the calling.

I dont have an issue with how you played this. There will be times vs lesser opponents who are married to their 4 & will pay u off. This guy just knew to get out
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 10:41 AM
Preflop: Bet 12 -> Pot is 60.
Flop: Bet 40 -> Pot is 140.
Turn: Villain only has 100 behind, so it all gets in there.

As played, raise the turn. It doesn't scream as much strength as you think, when he is just putting out such a small bet.

Good job with the flop bet. You are right - most people check this and cost themselves a lot of money. You also are representing way more than a monster with your flop bet (c-bet, AT, diamond draw) so you will get called by plenty of non-believers.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 10:49 AM
Alt line 2 is better than alt line 1. You would have bet more than 25 if checked to you, so bump it up. Raising may make him think the A improved your hand, allowing him to think Ax of diamonds and AT are strong possibilities for your holding.

I like your original line too though. Surprised by his fold with that much in the pot.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 10:50 AM
Hand #2. $150 bounty tournament, 50-100 level, a stage where it's deep enough to still play like cash. Actually pretty deep. Details are a bit fuzzy on this one.

Hero (~6000). I have played a couple of hands, but nothing that pops out.

Villain. (~8000) Loose, running something like 48/12. Somewhat thinking post flop.

Hero dealt JT MP1

Action:

Hero raises 300
MP3 (Villain) calls 300
B calls 300
BB calls 300

Flop (1200) K97

Hero checks
Mp3 bets 1000
B folds
BB folds
Hero calls 1000

Turn (3200) Q

Hero checks
Mp3 bets 1600
Hero reraises all in
MP3 folds

Observations. Villain didn't give me odds to call on the flop, but having read the thread on implied odds, I thought the combination of a disguised double belly buster and villain's aggression allowed me to call.

On turn, I shove all in, partly because I afraid of flush coming, but mostly because I felt that there could be a ton of scare cards that would kill my action on the river.

I guess I could have checked called on the turn and check shove on the river, but I am thinking I could have mini bet on the turn to induce a raise on the turn. What other people think?
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyEagles9
You did not say what came on the river. Was it a diamond? If it was not a diamond and he had a four, and the discipline to fold it, you might not have been able to get more. As of right now you've done a pretty good job of playing like you have a flush draw with the calling.

I dont have an issue with how you played this. There will be times vs lesser opponents who are married to their 4 & will pay u off. This guy just knew to get out
No diamond on the river. A blank.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 10:51 AM
I sometimes feel that I'm never quite getting paid when I flop sets... but I understand that you can't stack 'em all the time.

If the flop was AAT, and the BB found a way to fold AK... then there may be something to investigate.

As played, he got 'priced in' after multiple callers, hit trip 4s on the flop. Played it cheaply until he figured you had the better hand...
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sao
Preflop: Bet 12 -> Pot is 60.
Flop: Bet 40 -> Pot is 140.
Turn: Villain only has 100 behind, so it all gets in there.

As played, raise the turn. It doesn't scream as much strength as you think, when he is just putting out such a small bet.

Good job with the flop bet. You are right - most people check this and cost themselves a lot of money. You also are representing way more than a monster with your flop bet (c-bet, AT, diamond draw) so you will get called by plenty of non-believers.
Yeah a raise of 12 would have been nifty against this villain, but I didn't know I was going to face that particular villain with that particular stack. Moreover, I don't want to be raising 12 with my UTG range, because I ll usually be OOP and I would have as strong hands, plus, table was pretty tight calling raises; it's a surprise I got five callers.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 11:22 AM
I like leading with a flopped set and I rarely condone slownplaying but understand that when you lead into several players your hand looks strong. A check on this flop isn't a bad idea.

As played I think we need to raise V's turn bet...maybe even shove. If he did indeed have a 4 and we raise the turn he may be inclined to believe we smacked the Ace and be willing to stack off.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 12:50 PM
In the t44 hand, your flop lead is too small. You should be targeting pocket pairs and especially 4s. 4x, and probably most pocket pairs above 4, will happily call a $35 or $40 flop bet the same way that they call a $22 bet. With this many callers, someone's likely to have a decent hand. You may fold out hands with two overcards, but you won't get several streets of value from those hands anyway. If you make it $40, then you have about $130 in the pot going into the turn and any bet effectively commits V.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual
Yeah a raise of 12 would have been nifty against this villain, but I didn't know I was going to face that particular villain with that particular stack. Moreover, I don't want to be raising 12 with my UTG range, because I ll usually be OOP and I would have as strong hands, plus, table was pretty tight calling raises; it's a surprise I got five callers.
True that you don't know who is going to call when you open UTG or from any early position. But the main point of my illustration is that the small difference up front pays off exponentially down the line. And if you are having problems getting large pots from large hands, the first place to change your game is to increase your preflop raise size.

And I would argue that you definitely do want to be raising 12 UTG. You are only playing the strongest part of your range early, build those pots!

Another thing to think about. Think about the players that you see who open 6, 7, or 8 dollars. How many big pots do they scoop? How often do you see them with $500 or more sitting in front of them? Now think about the players who you do regularly see with walls of chips in front of them - what do they typically open? And what size are their flop and turn bets?

Don't sacrifice $50 or $100 of lost value on the river in order to save $4 preflop.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 01:33 PM
^checking flop in hand 1 is terrible.

I think your only mistake other than sizing is not raising turn in hand 1. His weak donk is most likely a blocker bet with a fd or trying to induce. Can't believe he bet folded a 4 otr with those odds but wasn't able to guess you had pocket TT?
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-24-2014 , 01:56 PM
Hand 1 you bet too little on the flop. I'd go closer to 35. Given stacks, I might do something stupid like minraise turn just to make sure we get it all in on the river.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-25-2014 , 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sao
True that you don't know who is going to call when you open UTG or from any early position. But the main point of my illustration is that the small difference up front pays off exponentially down the line. And if you are having problems getting large pots from large hands, the first place to change your game is to increase your preflop raise size.

And I would argue that you definitely do want to be raising 12 UTG. You are only playing the strongest part of your range early, build those pots!

Another thing to think about. Think about the players that you see who open 6, 7, or 8 dollars. How many big pots do they scoop? How often do you see them with $500 or more sitting in front of them? Now think about the players who you do regularly see with walls of chips in front of them - what do they typically open? And what size are their flop and turn bets?

Don't sacrifice $50 or $100 of lost value on the river in order to save $4 preflop.
Well, my UTG raise is probably loose for people here as I would raise any pair AJs+, AQ+, KQ+ and SCs. In most of those situations I will also be trying a c-bet and/or looking to hit the flop hard to continue, so it's a fine line between bloating the pot when you want to, seeing it cheaply when you want to and of course getting max value when you can.

Truth be told, I will somewhat vary pf raise based on hand strength, but most of all, I try to adjust my default pf raise (+2 for each limper) based on table conditions with the aim of getting 2-3 callers at most. At the time, I felt that 8 would have done that. I am really not married to the $8 raise and I would do $10 or $12 if it serves my purpose equally as well.

Speaking of counterfactuals, had I raised 12, yes, it would have been easier to put the BB all in on the river, but all the same it would have been far more unlikely for the BB to call in the first place.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-25-2014 , 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIB211
In the t44 hand, your flop lead is too small. You should be targeting pocket pairs and especially 4s. 4x, and probably most pocket pairs above 4, will happily call a $35 or $40 flop bet the same way that they call a $22 bet. With this many callers, someone's likely to have a decent hand. You may fold out hands with two overcards, but you won't get several streets of value from those hands anyway. If you make it $40, then you have about $130 in the pot going into the turn and any bet effectively commits V.
I am not sure that pocket pairs bellow TT continue as easily. Again, it seems to me that there's a fine line here. I wanted to make it look as a weak c-bet, but I feel that betting more half the pot after an UTG raise would indicate super strength that people would pick up on. Why would 55-99 continue when they see a person bet hard against 5 people in a dry board such as this? I could very well have QQ-AA there and they wouldn't be far off.
Extracting max value from hands Quote
04-25-2014 , 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual
I am not sure that pocket pairs bellow TT continue as easily. Again, it seems to me that there's a fine line here. I wanted to make it look as a weak c-bet, but I feel that betting more half the pot after an UTG raise would indicate super strength that people would pick up on. Why would 55-99 continue when they see a person bet hard against 5 people in a dry board such as this? I could very well have QQ-AA there and they wouldn't be far off.
I don't know your game, but think you're giving people a bit too much credit. Not sure a bet of 40 looks much stronger, and people are more apt to put you on AK anyway. With this many people still to act, it's likely that someone's not going to believe you after one bet, and certainly any 4 is calling.
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