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Old 02-07-2014, 08:27 PM   #1
ChrisBowling
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+EV to limp behind or not?

I understand that limping behind 64s on the btn is +EV behind two limpers because it is medium value (Not good enough to raise for value, but not bad enough to fold). At the casino, when there is two loose passive fish, and I'm on the btn with Axs, I generally raise to isolate. Usually when there is 3 or more, I generally limp behind (100bbs deep). I generally fold weak Qxs and Jxs, but what about weak Kxs? Is it +EV to limp behind loose passive limpers with Kxs, or should it just be a fold pre flop?
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Old 02-07-2014, 08:35 PM   #2
beauvanlaanen
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I like limping suited hands behind otb, people think limping is weak but whatever. Seeing flops is how you win in LLSNL. People misplay so many hands post flop it really helps to be on the button when they do.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:20 PM   #3
Buster65
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

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Originally Posted by ChrisBowling View Post
I understand that limping behind 64s on the btn is +EV behind two limpers because it is medium value (Not good enough to raise for value, but not bad enough to fold). At the casino, when there is two loose passive fish, and I'm on the btn with Axs, I generally raise to isolate. Usually when there is 3 or more, I generally limp behind (100bbs deep). I generally fold weak Qxs and Jxs, but what about weak Kxs? Is it +EV to limp behind loose passive limpers with Kxs, or should it just be a fold pre flop?
Are you seriously saying that limping 64 suited OTB is plus EV, then saying you fold your suited Queens and Jacks, and are then asking whether a suited King is good enough to limp?

Maybe asking these questions to yourself out loud and seeing if they sound like they make sense might be a good idea.

Look, there are 3 things we look for if we are intent on playing our cards (instead of our opponents cards, for example). Suited, connected, and high card value. Of these, high card value is the most important. 64s, for example, has 2 of these traits, suited and connected. Q2s also has 2 of these traits, high card value and suited. Generally speaking, Q2s is the better hand of the 2, because of it's high card value. When you make a single pair (your most likely type of hand), a pair of Queens will win more often than a pair of 6s. EZ game.

GL on the felt!
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:29 PM   #4
slimshady1999
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

I'd fold K2s-K6s always, and often K7s, K8s too even with limpers. K2s-K6s is Likely -ev in the long Run at pretty much any table. You're just not going to hit hard often enough as the only way you can win big is to hit a flush, two pairs or trips AND have someone hit a weaker hand AND have that someone be a total idiot who will stack off in a limped pot against you. That's just not going to happen often enough. And when you hit a pair, you will often be out kicked. Sure, if you will steal pot a very very high % of the time, you can limp behind and steal, but bluffing 3+ villains with air is almost always -ev
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:31 PM   #5
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

64s is way better than Q2s in terms of potential. With 64s, you can flop a straight or open ended and when you flop a pair, it's unlikely other people have the same pair with a better kicker. Whereas Q2s can't flop a straight and when you flop top pair and get any action you are often behind.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:34 PM   #6
Buster65
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

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Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
64s is way better than Q2s in terms of potential. With 64s, you can flop a straight or open ended and when you flop a pair, it's unlikely other people have the same pair with a better kicker. Whereas Q2s can't flop a straight and when you flop top pair and get any action you are often behind.
And yet Q2s has more equity preflop and plays better to the river. Absent bringing in some postflop reads, it is the better hand.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:42 PM   #7
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

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And yet Q2s has more equity preflop and plays better to the river. Absent bringing in some postflop reads, it is the better hand.
So you're basically saying against an unknown, it's better to call a raise with K2o than it is with QJs since king high beats queen high? It's better to call a shove with deuces than AK pre since dueces beats ace high? Because we have no reads and based on what you say, you should be doing the above. You have to look at how well your hand can flop too. A2o has little potential and is garbage but KQs has a lot of potential and is a good hand to play in most spots even though ace high beats king high pre.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:43 PM   #8
ChrisBowling
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

My understanding is that Q4s would be better in a HU pot or 3-way pot, but if you are multi-way, then playing for the nuts is more important, so 64s would have more utility because you are drawing to straights/flushes vs having the Q high card/flushes that wouldn't be that great flopping a Q.
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Old 02-07-2014, 09:44 PM   #9
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

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Originally Posted by Buster65 View Post
Are you seriously saying that limping 64 suited OTB is plus EV, then saying you fold your suited Queens and Jacks, and are then asking whether a suited King is good enough to limp?

Maybe asking these questions to yourself out loud and seeing if they sound like they make sense might be a good idea.

Look, there are 3 things we look for if we are intent on playing our cards (instead of our opponents cards, for example). Suited, connected, and high card value. Of these, high card value is the most important. 64s, for example, has 2 of these traits, suited and connected. Q2s also has 2 of these traits, high card value and suited. Generally speaking, Q2s is the better hand of the 2, because of it's high card value. When you make a single pair (your most likely type of hand), a pair of Queens will win more often than a pair of 6s. EZ game.

GL on the felt!
The original question of this thread is way too specific and I think OP would do better to understand more fundamental concepts, and then this question would answer itself.

But this post I quoted has to be a troll.

Q2s has high card value? WHAT???

For the people reading this who aren't trolls: high card value means the ability to make top pair with either card. Q2s is a trash hand because of the 3 qualities, it only has one: being suited. If you don't understand this, ask yourself whether you would ever play Q2o. No, you wouldn't, because it basically has no value. The ability to make a pair of queens with a crappy kicker is not nearly enough value to make the hand worth playing.

Of course it is better to be suited, but it is not better to the point of making it +EV to play. The point is that Q2s has the same high card value as Q2o--that is, none. The only benefit is being suited, and that's not enough.
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Old 02-07-2014, 11:13 PM   #10
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Re: +EV to limp behind or not?

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Originally Posted by slimshady1999 View Post
So you're basically saying against an unknown, it's better to call a raise with K2o than it is with QJs since king high beats queen high?
We were of course speaking of limped pots. But for arguments sake, no. K2o has a high card and that's it, QJs has high card, suited and connected. Apples to oranges.

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Originally Posted by CallMeVernon View Post
high card value means the ability to make top pair with either card.
Not at all, and not trolling. According to Sklansky, high card value is stronger if you can make top pair with either card, but a hand with a single high card still has some high card value. Of course you prefer both cards to have the ability to make top pair, but we were comparing 2 specific hands, Q2s and 64s. Which has the higher card value? I won't ask which hand is better, because we all know the answer to that one.

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Originally Posted by ChrisBowling View Post
My understanding is that Q4s would be better in a HU pot or 3-way pot, but if you are multi-way, then playing for the nuts is more important, so 64s would have more utility because you are drawing to straights/flushes vs having the Q high card/flushes that wouldn't be that great flopping a Q.
Well, as Vernon said, your OP really needs to be framed better. The reason 64s might be better in a multiway pot is that with more players in the pot, you are more likely to have a player who has made a hand he is willing to felt with (note that I would be much happier with the Q high flush, btw, so flush value probably goes down multiway).

My main point, that I obviously failed to get across (sarcasm, ftw), is that I'm not a big fan of limping EITHER 64s or Q2s OTB for their value alone. If you are playing FnF, 64s is fine, if you are playing guys that will limp ATC, then Q2s is fine (as is Q2o, for that matter), if you are playing the opponent, ATC is fine. It all depends.
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