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View Poll Results: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper we get?
No stay the same 3 33.33%
Yes we cbet more often 4 44.44%
No we cbet less often 2 22.22%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Yesterday, 01:42 AM   #1
DooDooPoker
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Spade Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper we are (Higher SPR)?
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Old Yesterday, 03:05 AM   #2
Badreg2017
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Wouldn’t it depend on the board? Like OOP on 982 two tone if we 3 bet a range of TT+ ATs+ AQo+ A2-A5s 65s we are supposed to check a ton OOP deepstack when IP can have all the sets and 98s but if we are short we can cbet. Whereas, on boards where we have more nutted hands, and on less dynamic boards where position matters less, wouldn’t we want to cbet more often when we are deeper so we can threaten stacks by the river?

I’m kind of a beginner when it comes to the more advanced poker theory stuff so correct me if I’m wrong.
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Old Yesterday, 03:16 AM   #3
Amanaplan
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Theory forum incoming.

Anyways, just a quick thought about infinite stacks and then work backward from there. Wouldn’t your freq increase because more of your range can river the nuts or turn the nut blocker? I.e. AJsx on Q72ss turn xs can be bet otf more often bc it can then shove for infinite stacks and win ‘pot’. Naturally that line can’t happen at 100bb and win the same amount if win at all. So with more combos to cbet as part of plus EV likes, the frequency prob comes along - unless we wider our range to a point where it still winds up about the same. More bets but more of it also checks, so things even out. Perhaps.
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Old Yesterday, 06:09 AM   #4
venice10
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Mpethybridge, a former mod in this forum (and others) was once the go to person for database analysis. He'd work with 10nl donks (like me) up to "Hey, thanks for the insights. I've got to play Tom Dwan tonight." He had millions of hand histories.

One of the things he shared was that no matter what the stakes, the cbet success rate was virtually the same. I thereby suspect that as a practical matter, cbetting frequencies don't change much as stack size goes up.

On a theoretical basis, I would expect cbet frequencies would go down at infinite stacks. The biggest reason is that there would be virtually no reason to fold pf. Therefore, the pfr would be faced with a MW flop most of the time and have little confidence they could win the pot on the the flop. Their range would drop into simply value hands.
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Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM   #5
DooDooPoker
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

I messed this poll up duh. The last option should be "Yes we cbet less often" not No.
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Old Yesterday, 11:39 AM   #6
DooDooPoker
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
Wouldnít it depend on the board? Like OOP on 982 two tone if we 3 bet a range of TT+ ATs+ AQo+ A2-A5s 65s we are supposed to check a ton OOP deepstack when IP can have all the sets and 98s but if we are short we can cbet. Whereas, on boards where we have more nutted hands, and on less dynamic boards where position matters less, wouldnít we want to cbet more often when we are deeper so we can threaten stacks by the river?

Iím kind of a beginner when it comes to the more advanced poker theory stuff so correct me if Iím wrong.
Well in your example the SPR will most likely be relatively low because it is a 3bet pot. But we would bet our TT-QQ before our KK/AA because the lower overpairs are more vulnerable.

In the solve below the SPR was around 3.5.

I recently solved a X52 tt board in 3bet pots OOP to try to figure out frequencies a bit and this is what the solver came up with.

K high/J high boards are bet the most often - around 80% of our range.
Q high/T high boards are the second most bet - around 50% frequency
9876 high boards are all between 30-35% frequency
A high boards are the least bet at 25% frequency

So to answer your question. We should still be checking a lot theoretically in 3bet pots OOP - even if the SPR is lowish (3-4).

My question was more geared towards higher SPR spots. I think in live play this is less relevant because:

1) The PF open is much bigger than it is online
2) A lot of pots are multiway which decreases the SPR
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Old Yesterday, 11:45 AM   #7
DK Barrel
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
On a theoretical basis, I would expect cbet frequencies would go down at infinite stacks. The biggest reason is that there would be virtually no reason to fold pf. Therefore, the pfr would be faced with a MW flop most of the time and have little confidence they could win the pot on the the flop. Their range would drop into simply value hands.
I mean, even with infinite money, you could still have the worst hand.

There are uncapped NLH games. People fold pre in them.
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Old Yesterday, 11:48 AM   #8
DooDooPoker
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
Mpethybridge, a former mod in this forum (and others) was once the go to person for database analysis. He'd work with 10nl donks (like me) up to "Hey, thanks for the insights. I've got to play Tom Dwan tonight." He had millions of hand histories.

One of the things he shared was that no matter what the stakes, the cbet success rate was virtually the same. I thereby suspect that as a practical matter, cbetting frequencies don't change much as stack size goes up.

On a theoretical basis, I would expect cbet frequencies would go down at infinite stacks. The biggest reason is that there would be virtually no reason to fold pf. Therefore, the pfr would be faced with a MW flop most of the time and have little confidence they could win the pot on the the flop. Their range would drop into simply value hands.
Yes but we are talking about cbet frequencies in relation to SPR - not the incidental effect of pots being MW. Which of course - would lower your cbet frequency.
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Old Yesterday, 04:57 PM   #9
Amanaplan
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

By the way, it may just be as simple as oop cbet freq goes down, IP goes up the deeper it gets. It probably tapers off at some point toward infinite stacks too, but obv just a guess.
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Old Yesterday, 05:02 PM   #10
gobbledygeek
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

I voted less often (noting that I'm assuming "cbet" doesn't imply anything about our hand regarding whether it is a monster versus air versus inbetween).

When we're shorter, there's just far more chance we feel happily committed and are looking to get in stacks ASAP.

When we're deeper, there's just far more chance we're not looking to build a big pot, and thus far more checking for pot control.

ETA: We're going to flop a monster vs air vs inbetween the same amount of frequency whether deep or short. My guess is that there won't be too much of a difference in cbet frequency when we flop monsters (build a pot when deep or let's just do this ASAP anyways when short before our customer is scared away / he's willing to pay) and when we have air (let's hopefully take it down ASAP or give ourselves options later either way). But in the inbetween case (such as just one pair) my guess is the cbet frequency should change drastically (easily committed when short so fine with getting things in ASAP, but not committed when deep and thus fine with keeping the pot small by checking). Obviously it depends / blah blah blah, but all things considered, that would be my take.

GcluelesscbetnoobG

Last edited by gobbledygeek; Yesterday at 05:12 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 05:39 PM   #11
venice10
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
I mean, even with infinite money, you could still have the worst hand.

There are uncapped NLH games. People fold pre in them.
Yes, but it can still hit on the flop. Again on a theoretical basis, if your IO are 500:1, you could call with anything and be correct. Nothing is going to be 500:1 against hitting the flop.

Uncapped games still have a cap of the the smallest stack in the hand. That's why you fold.

That said, we aren't going to ever be playing in an infinite money game. So I agree with your points in a practical sense.
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Old Today, 03:02 AM   #12
SABR42
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

I play uncapped games a lot and VPIP's are roughly the same as in capped games.

The difference is that fold to 3-bet and fold to 4-bet are somewhat lower in deep capped games, although people do still fold to 3-bets and 4-bets.

Sure, hands that make straights and nut flushes become quite valuable super deep, but no one is playing J4o. How do you plan to win a big pot with J4o? By flopping JJ4? Good luck with that. Implied odds don't work that way. Being infinitely deep does not change hand equities.
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Old Today, 07:45 AM   #13
snowman
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Re: Do you think cbet frequencies change the deeper the Effective stacks?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
I play uncapped games a lot and VPIP's are roughly the same as in capped games.

The difference is that fold to 3-bet and fold to 4-bet are somewhat lower in deep capped games, although people do still fold to 3-bets and 4-bets.

Sure, hands that make straights and nut flushes become quite valuable super deep, but no one is playing J4o. How do you plan to win a big pot with J4o? By flopping JJ4? Good luck with that. Implied odds don't work that way. Being infinitely deep does not change hand equities.
and there is a lot more 3 & 4 betting in deep capped games

in truth there is no seen diff in c-bets from my observation.
but does OP mean there should be or just wondering if it changes peoples play?
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