1/3 live
Villain1-280
Villain2-100
Villain3-110
Hero-550

Villians limp to hero on the button with KcKh
Hero raises to 25 Villian1 calls, Villian 2 calls, Villian 3 shoves all in 110.
Should we isolate and reshove or call and let other villains call?

It depends on how wide villains can call and what limp reraiser's range is. Assuming lrr is wider than AA of course!

Youd have to assign some ranges and stove it to be sure.

My standard, particularly with KK, would be to shove as I guess my increased chance of winning a smaller pot is greater EV than lower chance of winning a bigger pot. Stack size plays a part too. If we call and other villain's call we'll be facing a flop SPR < 1. We can't really fold any flops so we may as well gii preflop.

You might as well shove now. If V3 has AA, you need help and unless V1 calls and gets it in with you on a low flop, how are you going to get anything else out of this pot? You're either jamming now otf, best to get it in the favorite, even though you're likely going hu. I'd love to see the player pool where multiple players would limp/call you with less, though.

Lol yeah that player pool would be profitable to play against! They'd need deep pockets to continue as a pool for long though...

...like a player puddle after a few hours

Your hand looks very strong whether you call or raise. With these stacks and the situation, you can call and let the others in. One stack is so short he probably comes along regardless.
You have position. If you were OOP, I'd be more inclined to say raise, but with the button, calling or raising are going to be pretty similar here.
Even if you call, the V with $280 stack may fold, so it may not matter what you do.

Villan 1 is obviously who we want but calling may make this a 4 way pot which we don't want so I shove

I don't see any reasonable argument for shoving. Calling has the same effect, but it looks weaker!

Bobman, my argument is to reduce chance of an opponent out flopping us. I would have to do the maths to work out what is best for sure though. How much more at risk are we vs 2, 3 or 4 opponents? How often do we win that bigger pot and is that better than going HU allin?

You are doubtless better at the maths than me so I was hoping maybe you'd do it?

Yeah we need a bit more info generally but this seems like a trivial flat

Not saying flatting is bad but just interested in what we do in worst case scenario:

Say we flat and V2 calls his remaining $75 but, weirdly, V1 calls too and flop is A-high. Pot is $430 and v1 bets his remaining $170.

What's the plan then?

I feel like V2 can't have called expecting to fold any flops so doesn't automatically have an Ace just because he bets flop. So are we happy stacking off on all flops absent a read v2 can somehow fit fold flops after putting in > 1/3rd stack pre?

Nobody is really deep enough here that you shouldn't want the other Villains in.

The earlier claim that a higher chance of winning a smaller pot is better than a lower chance of winning a bigger pot is exactly wrong. With these stack sizes, no one has the odds to call $85 to try to outflop you. We will show a greater profit over time by collecting extra calls preflop, even if V1 never gets it in bad postflop.

The only potential reason why you might want to shove here is balance-related, if you think Villains will notice that you're weaker when you shove than you are when you just call. If you don't think that's important, then just call.

Tank calling here for effect. V2 comes along regardless if you shove or call. V1 may think he has 'pot odds' to call if you just call. We can play him in position with a premium hand HU for an additional $180. A shove will cause V1 to fold most hands and even V2 can find a hero fold.

Overall, pretty ideal spot.

I disagree with flagging. Shove is only option here.

Other Villans only have $25 invested and one of the Villans has $280.

Although flatting or shoving makes no difference for the other Villans, by showing you force the Villan with $280 to commit preflop.

If he calls as long as you beat him you made +EV

By flatting you allow him to call and possibly get out on the flop

(grunching, as usual)

My guess is that this is a PokerStove exercise, and my guess is that it is most +EV to call and hope for overcalls. HU (with some dead money) we'll obviously win a much bigger percentage of the time, whereas multiway we won't win nearly as often but when we do I *think* we'll probably win more overall (kinda like the maximum expectation with AA is to want everyone on the table to call a preflop shove). The only slightly tricky thing is that V1 will still have $170 left (about a 1/2 PSB) and we might be in kinda sick spots on A high flops against him.

GcluelessNLnoobG

TL;DR: Horribly wonky maths leads to conclusion callmevernon is absolutely right, call> shove because winning bigger pot less often > winning smaller pot more often.



Ok say V1 only calls with AQ-A2, for arguments sake and to keep maths simple. Let's assume v1 stacks off on flop if he hits an Ace or better. Otherwise he x/f (not saying realistic, just easy to model).

Assume v2 comes along whether we shove or call.

Pot is 330 if we shove and v1 folds and we win it some % of time. Pot is 440 if we call and v1 calls. V1 hits an Ace around 1/4 of the time and we lose the pot plus an extra $180 (because we don't know v1 is fit folding the flop until we see same spot repeatedly).

So 3/4 times that v1 comes along we win some % of his $110 preflop call in addition to some % of the $330 we and the other V's put in preflop. This is an impossible max extra win of $330 per 4 trials on average.

1/4 times we lose the pot and an extra $180. We lose the pot some % of time anyway so we ignore the main pot and just count the $180 extra. Clearly the maximum we can possibly lose above the 3-way alternative is that $180.

Thus we have to be winning vs the shorter stacked V's at least 180/330= 55% of the time to make the extra money off v1's preflop bet to cover the cost of the extra $180 loss.

I think we stand to win at least 55% of pots vs the two shorties so clearly better to have the extra call from V1. Indeed, the model i use here is pretty pessimistic because v1 will sometimes call with hands like lower pocket pairs which we crush even worse than AX.

Ok, so if any of my horrible maths makes sense I think callmevernon et al are correct: Call and gii postflop whatever comes and you do better than shoving preflop!

With 3 villains in the pot, we almost have to give up if an A flops and V1 shoves. We'll get about 3.5:1 odds meaning we need to be good 22% of the time. I think at least one villain has an A >78% of the time.

Call, and HOPE the other players all call. Shove any non Ace flop

Calling gets the most money in the middle, so do that. I'd shove JJ and probably QQ though.

Obv call obviously.

Best hands V1 could have against us are only ~30% to win vs us alone. If he wants to try to outflop us for 1/3 of his stack, good luck buddy, it's a losing proposition.

Thanks for responses guys! I ended up just calling and Villain 1 called and villain 2 folded. flop came J95 rainbow and villain 1 donk shoves I call and he had JJ

It is small consolation but... He definitely wasn't getting correct odds to set-mine

Lol at V1; he calls putting in 40% of his stack hoping an A/K/Q doesn't fall?

GnicehandOPG

No, he's hoping an A/K/Q doesn't fall, because he loses the rest of his stack if he flops an overpair.

OP, you played this hand perfectly as far as I'm concerned.

Snap call. You want the ranges villains will play after you call, not after you shove. You're pot committed either way.