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Old 05-06-2013, 05:41 PM   #126
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Yea if he was eating Oreos, I'm insta calling.
Or was that... not eating the Oreos...
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:28 PM   #127
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

If calling the clock is more likely to get me called in big pots where I am holding the nuts, I am calling the clock more often.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:51 PM   #128
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Columbus is insanely profitable, and it's magnified by the fact that they can buy into the game up to the big stack.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:23 PM   #129
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I read these threads constantly and this was one of my favorites. Good discussion
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:29 PM   #130
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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I think this thread is results oriented and awful
So this. 400bb river bluffs itt.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:38 PM   #131
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I'm actually pretty shocked that OP ended up being good here.

Yea, maybe he made a sick live read that this guy was weak/behind here. But from the reads in the OP I don't think I could come to that. Sitting live at the table myself I guess that I might be able to get the read, but I'd like to think that my rational brain would override and prevent me from calling off $900 on a prayer.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:49 PM   #132
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

you guys can call the clock on your opponent in your casinos you play?

we had this discussion very recently and floor came over and said if pot is HU, no player can call the clock, it can only be called by players not in the hand. I was suprised but didn't further question it.

yeah, thread is results-oriented but I still liked it as I have seen one or two players in my pool who tank in "standard" spots like this and seem to be able to fold/call exactly in that moment which you usually chalk up as "it doesn't happen often enough to be profitable" and if you are manage to be right that small percentage then that is insanely profitable.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:59 PM   #133
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I fold turn 1 card left oop paired board deep.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:10 AM   #134
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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you guys can call the clock on your opponent in your casinos you play?

we had this discussion very recently and floor came over and said if pot is HU, no player can call the clock, it can only be called by players not in the hand. I was suprised but didn't further question it.

yeah, thread is results-oriented but I still liked it as I have seen one or two players in my pool who tank in "standard" spots like this and seem to be able to fold/call exactly in that moment which you usually chalk up as "it doesn't happen often enough to be profitable" and if you are manage to be right that small percentage then that is insanely profitable.
Every place that I can remember playing at has allowed any player at the table to call the clock after "a reasonable amount of time" (determined by the floor if needed, rare). I think the only requirement is that you were dealt into the hand. In practice very few players call the clock heads up. They probably feel that it gives of a tell of something. It's almost always someone else that's sitting there while the guy tanks for 5 mins over a trivial bet (obviously in OP most would give him a little bit of leeway to think about it).


While it's very tempting to assign soul reading abilities to villains that make seemingly sick calls like OP or this ... there's a bit of a selection bias in that we tend to remember the sick calls more than the "standard" beats. Not saying that there isn't an element of coming up with a sick live read, just that it's most likely over-rated when you're watching from the outside.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:17 AM   #135
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Originally Posted by MarkMcKay View Post
you guys can call the clock on your opponent in your casinos you play?

we had this discussion very recently and floor came over and said if pot is HU, no player can call the clock, it can only be called by players not in the hand. I was suprised but didn't further question it.

yeah, thread is results-oriented but I still liked it as I have seen one or two players in my pool who tank in "standard" spots like this and seem to be able to fold/call exactly in that moment which you usually chalk up as "it doesn't happen often enough to be profitable" and if you are manage to be right that small percentage then that is insanely profitable.
lol, where do you play? Everywhere I have played, a player is allowed to call the clock. Hell I had a clock called on me by a guy WHO WASNT EVEN IN THE HAND, a few weeks ago.
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:26 AM   #136
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

great call. i guess this is a good example of how live play often defies conventional wisdom. on paper it would seem this should be a clear bet/fold.

these spots have a huge impact on ur winrate as well.
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Old 05-07-2013, 05:35 AM   #137
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Any tanking after about 30 seconds is just an inability to decide and fear of losing.

Last edited by Czech Rays; 05-07-2013 at 05:44 AM. Reason: ??? I donīt need reasons!
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:30 AM   #138
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

On calling the clock - it depends who it is that's doing the tanking. If they're generally slowing down the game and being an annoyance at the table then i'm more likely to call the clock. Last night some guy would continually take 4-5 seconds to flip his cards up, told people what he had when he'd folded and others were still to act, acted out of turn and took 30-40 seconds sometimes to just decide whether to fold or not pre flop.

He was put all in for like 1/4 PSB and took more than 2 minutes to act, so he got called. I think others who are generally pleasant at the table will be afforded more time. I've personally only ever called the clock once, and i wasn't involved in the hand, but then it's my game too, so i want it to move along as quick as possible. Live poker is slow enough.
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Old 05-07-2013, 12:47 PM   #139
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This thread is about the power of the read on a villains river insta-shove. In a vacuume, the call is lolbad, but live this is a very reliable read.

Wish you had folded and he showed a bluff, OP. Responses on those results would have been interesting
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #140
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Any tanking after about 30 seconds is just an inability to decide and fear of losing.
I disagree. When e hand is that big and the decision is close it takes me a while to go through every detail in my mind. My best calls have always come up after a tank when I remember a detail that gave it away.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:38 PM   #141
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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I disagree. When e hand is that big and the decision is close it takes me a while to go through every detail in my mind. My best calls have always come up after a tank when I remember a detail that gave it away.
For most players though, the longer the tank, the worse the decision.

The tank becomes less about thinking and more about stewing in your emotional juices. After about a minute, most tanking is nothing more than a build up of tilt until the anger overrides logic and you end up making a bad call.

Now, if during the tank you are actually going through the villain hand histories/tendencies etc then absolutely, tanking is +EV. But most players don't do that. Most players fixate on one "thing" and then their emotions just build up and its the build up of emotions that eventually make the decision for the player one way or the other.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:40 PM   #142
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Yeah I have had to tank one time for like 4 minutes and had the clock called on me where I narrowed villain's range down to Q3dd or one of the two FD's OTT.
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Old 05-07-2013, 03:10 PM   #143
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Don't think most itt are getting the point.

This still technically was probably a bad call over time. Or it's incredibly thin over what will be an insanely small sample with ******ed variance.

I just call out live reads for funzies, y'all are welcome for the clock tidbit, but super lol at basing the decision off of that or other live reads. Was he listening to his Oreos?

This thread is the equivalent of me posting a hand where my KK cracked AA for a 700bb pot all in pre.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:06 PM   #144
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

analogy fail. worst case scenario, this thread is about calling pre with Kings for 700bbs when i have no good reason to think Villain shows up with anything but aces but he does for whatever unknown reason.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:19 PM   #145
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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analogy fail. worst case scenario, this thread is about calling pre with Kings for 700bbs when i have no good reason to think Villain shows up with anything but aces but he does for whatever unknown reason.
You are missing the point. The cards aren't the analogy, the equity is.

Spoiler:


Others have already pointed out the bluff factor equity you need in this hand, imo it is not enough, unless we know villain is a total spewtard, and then it is thin.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:30 PM   #146
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

the only intellectually interesting thing about this thread was what if anything I could infer from the things Villain did. if you don't think i could infer much of anything and that's your unflinchingly rigid conclusion,then this thread is stupid. duh. no one disagrees with you on that.
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Old 05-07-2013, 04:32 PM   #147
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

you obviously need to skip 2/5 and move straight to 5T
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Old 05-07-2013, 06:10 PM   #148
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Originally Posted by dgiharris View Post
For most players though, the longer the tank, the worse the decision.

The tank becomes less about thinking and more about stewing in your emotional juices. After about a minute, most tanking is nothing more than a build up of tilt until the anger overrides logic and you end up making a bad call.
Heh, I posted a hand in the chat thread where I stewed in my juices on a river decision where I would be pissed if my opponent actually showed up with a hand, but I couldn't fold. (I called and won.)

But I don't entirely agree with your point. I have ADD. For me the "emotional juices" interfere with the thinking process itself and make it take longer. One hand where I was facing an all in, it took me a minute to get past my emotions and actually think about my opponent's likely hand range.

Part of this is due to simply being out of practice with regard to ranging. But point being, the thought process does not always go "Actual thinking, and then time-wasting-self-indulgence".
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