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Old 05-06-2013, 10:52 AM   #76
Jmrode67
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Originally Posted by Bagzzz View Post
Calling because so many people have a small flush is horribad. This person has a huge stack. Probably from guys who call over bets with second tier hands.
I don't think this can give us any insight to him being able to Jam worse than boats here... could simply be people call his $900 river jams on paired boards with flushes...
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:52 AM   #77
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

On the turn you believed the flush was good if you got there. Then you get there and want to fold. I’m not calling the turn if I’m folding to a raise on the river.
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Old 05-06-2013, 10:55 AM   #78
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Yes results please op.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:01 AM   #79
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Not that results don't matter but some % of the time Hero will get shown a bluff/a weaker flush but it isn't a high enough % to justify a call here.

Of course, judging by the language of OP he called it off and got shown 99.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:03 AM   #80
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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On the turn you believed the flush was good if you got there. Then you get there and want to fold. I’m not calling the turn if I’m folding to a raise on the river.
This is wrong. There are a ton of hands we beat with the nutflush that will call us on the river paired board or no.

We now have new, very important information.

I´m not saying I love the turn call, but a turn call certainly does not commit us for our stack on the river.
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:05 AM   #81
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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This is wrong. There are a ton of hands we beat with the nutflush that will call us on the river paired board or no.

We now have new, very important information.

I´m not saying I love the turn call, but a turn call certainly does not commit us for our stack on the river.
Wasn't OP about to leave?
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Old 05-06-2013, 11:51 AM   #82
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Floor informed me that I had 30 seconds left. I stand up, look at villain, and say “I call, nice hand sir.” He then mucked his cards and rebought for what I had on the table. My call may have been bad, really really bad, but here’s why I made it.

First, his line up to the river didn’t factor into my decision at all because his overbet shove was a much much more important piece of information than anything that happened before it. I reiterate, I didn’t think “o, geez, I don’t play quads, straight flushes, and fullhouses like that so villain can’t either. I call!”

He was a middle aged man wearing a sportcoat and he brought black and purple chips to a 1/2 game. So my read while tanking, however incorrect it may have been, was that he came to the casino to gamble and the money wasn’t that important to him. This makes it more likely he would go all in without the nuts, or near nuts.

He insta shoved over my river bet. What does that mean exactly? I thought this meant that he was super excited and thought he was good obviously. I also thought it meant that he had just hit his gin card on the river and couldn’t wait to shovel his money in the pot. Sure, this could mean pocket sevens or 10 7 and straight flushes, but it could also mean flushes and straights.

He called the clock. I would never call the clock when good unless villain were tanking for a long ass time. Sure, maybe he called the clock to level me into thinking that he was weak. But I was not going to give him credit for that. FYI, after I started to tank I apologized in advance for what I thought would be me tanking for awhile, and the table informed me (either players and or the dealer, I forget exactly) that only villain could call the clock on me. So villain could have learned about “calling the clock” from that conversation.

Eventually, I concluded that he wasn’t a good player and possibly could be awful and the money didn’t matter to him that much. And against this player type who insta shoves the river, I thought I was good.

Flame on, and I readily admit that my call may have been awful, but please don’t assume hero can’t fold flushes and sucks and therefore called, or that this was some sort of elaborate brag (because it wasn’t). If my call didn’t suck, then the lesson of this thread is that live reads can matter a lot, and that’s one huge advantage thinking players have at poker.

As an aside, the player next to me, who either was a total degenerate or some con man poker pro, then bought in for 2600 and asked me to play 10/20. I obviously declined.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:00 PM   #83
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Ha, nobody is flaming you dude but he needs to be bluffing here, or show up with a worse flush, 34% of the time for calling to be good and that's a very high number for a readless player to have. And the issue isn't that people here don't think you can fold a flush but showing that hand and tanking for 5+ mnutes gives people in your player pool a lot of information.

Folding the best hand happens at times and you should work on controlling your emotions at the poker table/on the forum. I suggest The Mental Game of Poker by Jared Tendler or any of the stuff by Tommy Angelo.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:01 PM   #84
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Originally Posted by Czech Rays View Post
This is wrong. There are a ton of hands we beat with the nutflush that will call us on the river paired board or no.

We now have new, very important information.

I´m not saying I love the turn call, but a turn call certainly does not commit us for our stack on the river.
I don't ever see 10x and smaller flushes reraise this river hardly ever. And when I do its almost always a heads up pot which this wasnt.

I'm not flatting this turn from a multiway pot OOP and folding to a reraise when I actually get there. Not in this dam situation anyway.

Partly I say that because I lived in CBUS for 31 years and know that avg of the villian described in the area. And if villian was the avg of the area, Im calling.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:02 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by petesampras View Post
Floor informed me that I had 30 seconds left. I stand up, look at villain, and say “I call, nice hand sir.” He then mucked his cards and rebought for what I had on the table. My call may have been bad, really really bad, but here’s why I made it.

First, his line up to the river didn’t factor into my decision at all because his overbet shove was a much much more important piece of information than anything that happened before it. I reiterate, I didn’t think “o, geez, I don’t play quads, straight flushes, and fullhouses like that so villain can’t either. I call!”

He was a middle aged man wearing a sportcoat and he brought black and purple chips to a 1/2 game. So my read while tanking, however incorrect it may have been, was that he came to the casino to gamble and the money wasn’t that important to him. This makes it more likely he would go all in without the nuts, or near nuts.

He insta shoved over my river bet. What does that mean exactly? I thought this meant that he was super excited and thought he was good obviously. I also thought it meant that he had just hit his gin card on the river and couldn’t wait to shovel his money in the pot. Sure, this could mean pocket sevens or 10 7 and straight flushes, but it could also mean flushes and straights.

He called the clock. I would never call the clock when good unless villain were tanking for a long ass time. Sure, maybe he called the clock to level me into thinking that he was weak. But I was not going to give him credit for that. FYI, after I started to tank I apologized in advance for what I thought would be me tanking for awhile, and the table informed me (either players and or the dealer, I forget exactly) that only villain could call the clock on me. So villain could have learned about “calling the clock” from that conversation.

Eventually, I concluded that he wasn’t a good player and possibly could be awful and the money didn’t matter to him that much. And against this player type who insta shoves the river, I thought I was good.

Flame on, and I readily admit that my call may have been awful, but please don’t assume hero can’t fold flushes and sucks and therefore called, or that this was some sort of elaborate brag (because it wasn’t). If my call didn’t suck, then the lesson of this thread is that live reads can matter a lot, and that’s one huge advantage thinking players have at poker.

As an aside, the player next to me, who either was a total degenerate or some con man poker pro, then bought in for 2600 and asked me to play 10/20. I obviously declined.
Glad you got the results up. Nice win. And don't worry about the people on here. This is the internet where people troll for no decent reason to make themselves feel better. Just read and learn from the good and helpful post.

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Old 05-06-2013, 12:17 PM   #86
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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As an aside, the player next to me, who either was a total degenerate or some con man poker pro, then bought in for 2600 and asked me to play 10/20. I obviously declined.
LOL...

Was this a bad call? That's your answer.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:34 PM   #87
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

It's hard to make a case for or against this being a "good" or "bad" call.

You used all the information available to you in the moment to come to the CORRECT decision at the time. That is exactly what your supposed to do.

On average at 1/2 this will not be a bluff or a worse hand. Not many villains will buy in for 2k in a 1/2 game and then proceed to bluff all of it off in their first orbit. This happens almost never. So "generally" speaking, calling in this spot would be incorrect. However we're not talking in generalizations. We're talking about you sifting through the available information at the time and coming to the right conclusion.

Your call wasn't good or bad or anything in between, it was the right decision in this particular spot. Well done.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:36 PM   #88
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I think you fold the river as well. Sick soul read on villian!

Last edited by Derek4real; 05-06-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:52 PM   #89
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I was in a similar situation and made a similar call but had an extreme read on the villain to let me do it. I posted this story in another thread, but I'll repost it here because I think you'll enjoy reading it =P



1$/2$. Villain is playing a pretty bad LAG style, constantly raising pre with garbage, oozing tells, and making obvious bluffs (I called one of his raises on the river in a medium sized pot 30 minutes previous with 3rd pair on the river and took it down).

7 handed. Villain is in the BB, and announces that he's calling the $4 button straddle blind and walks away from the table. I raise to $15 with KJdd. Everyone folds to him; he comes back to the table and exclaims hes calling blind once more.

Flop is 2 9 Q all diamonds. He checks, I check to induce future action because 100% this guy is going to try to take the pot down on turn/river if I check.

Turn is 8c. He bets $10 into $25 pot. I pause, and then call (I feel he's going to fold to a raise here).

River is another 2. Almost immediately, he goes allin.

Wut.

$45 pot. My stack is at about $300 behind, he has over $1k behind.

To me, this is a snap fold in almost any situation. Why is this guy severely overbetting the pot in this kind of situation? Why did he check back the flop when his default is to bet in this kind of situation?

The only rational explanations I could come up with were: 1) he has pocket queens, nines, or deuces, and checked the flop, but now is hoping I slow played a flush and am going to call; or 2) he has something like 2 8, where he bet a two pair on the turn and now made a boat on the river and again is making this bet hoping I have a flush (2 8 is possible because he called preflop blind). So I'm folding unless I pick up extreme reads off him.

Looking at him, he appears legitimately pleased with his hand. I show him my KJdd from far away (he had gotten up from the table), and then he quickly walks towards the table and is like "MAN, WOW... OMG...". And at first I think he's trying to convince me that my hand is good and to call. But then he says "wow, you folded that???".

So... I tell him I didn't fold, and he now looks extremely uncomfortable. The clock has been called on me, so after studying him for about 15 more seconds to make sure this wasn't some kind of genius acting job, I ended up calling. He had 2 6 for trips. I guess he was legitimately happy about his hand. lmao.

Maybe the most hilarious part of this hand was other people at the table's reaction to the situation. One guy straight up turns towards me after I flip over my hand and (not discreetly) mouths "C A L L" (how ****ing inappropriate is that). And everyone at the table besides a good player and the dealer were convinced this was an easy call. My hand is a bluff (or idiot) catcher at this point.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:10 PM   #90
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I'm late to the party. If villain is rich, I'm more inclined to call. If he's some grubby looking dude, snap fold. All his table talk while you're tanking is very revealing. You gotta determine if he's prentending to be cool and super happy. Subtle things to look for are as he's engaging others in conversation, are his eyes flicking back to you to see if you're going to call or not? If he's pretending to b super happy, is his smile fake or genuine?

I like to hero people when they are hollywooding and trying to give all the classic signs of strength...leaning back, looking at the TV, talking to their neighbor happy as can be. When they go thru the complete cycle of all these and more, and still look nervous, or look like they are acting, I'm more inclined to call.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:14 PM   #91
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

He mucked before or after you tabled your hand?
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:22 PM   #92
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
Big leak in LLSNL is thinking "___ doesn't make sense"

Of course it doesn't make sense, this is LOLlivepoker.

"Why would he just snap overshove"

"Why would he flat a wet flop"

"Why blah blah blah?"

Just fold.
This is my favorite post on this entire thread.

Regarding the OP, I couldn't bring myself to call in such a high variance spot. Making money at a 1/2 table is done by value betting people to death and getting your money in the middle in clearer situations. While the results were in your favor in this hand, I think it's a -EV play in the long run.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:29 PM   #93
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

OP, It took more skill and guts than I have to make that call. Props! Still I think that at 1-2 stakes casino poker you will lose to the nuts too many times for this to be the "right" call often enough, NO BS about it being good or bad, just a creepy situation!

PS Very good posting!
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:29 PM   #94
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If the guy had been sitting at the table all night and had built his stack up I would instafold, guys coming from the pits with oversize chips (purple at 1/2? LOL) love to gamble and bully with their indifference to money. Obviously a really tough spot but I think you did well and trusted your reads correctly. This kind of player loves to overbet the river and shove to get the thrill of bluffing people off hands.

Good job op
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:35 PM   #95
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I'm glad you made the right decision by accident. I came to that conclusion because you made the call for all the wrong reasons. The biggest one is not reviewing his line up until the river. Like that's crazy man. Do you know how to range? Are you aware of how ranges make you play a hand a certain way? Do you even think about your overall line(Future and present and also what your opponents is or may be)?

A lot of times posters come here. And want to sway their thread so people can agree with you. I'm not saying the consensus is right. People love to make everything a math problem here. Villain was clearly a degen.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:37 PM   #96
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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He mucked before or after you tabled your hand?
Hero showed his hand then called
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:37 PM   #97
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I kind of think it's flawed thinking to this that people that don't have a clue what they're doing are going to be shoving the nuts here. I think we have to certainly factor bluffs (live villains see bluffing on TV so think that's how the game works) and the fact that people over value their hand so so much.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:41 PM   #98
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

nice hand and even better call.

I think I have to take a trip out to this casino this summer to grinddd
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:43 PM   #99
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Apparently, I need to make a road trip to Columbus, OH.
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:49 PM   #100
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

ilike cali, lol what?

i think concluding that villain is CLEARLY a degenerate is results oriented and unfair given the limited information at my disposal. That being said, aren't we more or less in agreement about calling and the reasons for calling?

Also, I did review his line but concluded that his river shove was a much more important piece of information than whatever I could infer from his calling my flop bet and betting 100 on the turn.

And if you would, please reconcile your criticism of my supposed failure to incorporate his line into my decision to call with your conclusion that "he's a degenerate. let's call!"

if i've misinterpreted your post, and you actually mean to say "his line doesn't make sense and a fullhouse wouldn't play the flop, turn, and river like that" then i just disagree with you completely.
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