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Old 05-05-2013, 11:22 PM   #26
ikestoys
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Originally Posted by petesampras View Post
his line makes no sense imho. why would he just flat the flop on a wet board with two pair or sets? i was betting into four other people on the flop, he must have thought i had something pretty good.
Because when you have a big hand is when it's time to tricky trap! Gotta trap all the time

Basically you need a read to call, I'm not seeing much of one.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:25 PM   #27
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Big leak in LLSNL is thinking "___ doesn't make sense"

Of course it doesn't make sense, this is LOLlivepoker.

"Why would he just snap overshove"

"Why would he flat a wet flop"

"Why blah blah blah?"

Just fold.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:30 PM   #28
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

btw, this is the kind of spot where i try to get villain to show me one. you'd be amazed how often that works. Shows you a diamond call, otherwise fold.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:30 PM   #29
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I puke fold this against a villain who just sat down 15 minutes ago that I had no read on.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:40 PM   #30
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

i find fault with your logic taox. i wasn't saying "o, his line doesn't comport with common 2 plus 2 wisdom of how someone with a fullhouse would play this hand and so he CANNOT have a fullhouse." what i'm saying is that his actions up to the river shove didn't contribute one way or another to my decision to fold/call. sure, he could have been slow playing his set of 10s or two pair, or he could have been chasing a draw.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:43 PM   #31
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Originally Posted by bfrank View Post
I puke fold this against a villain who just sat down 15 minutes ago that I had no read on.
This sucks, but I think it's a fold. UGH really want to know the results of this hand :/ , especially if you called.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:44 PM   #32
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So what did you do?
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:44 PM   #33
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

i'll post results tomorrow after a couple more people chime in.
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:50 PM   #34
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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lol snap fold this river

you need to know what you are going to do before you bet

FWIW assuming your A/Q is never good you are getting 3.5:1 direct odds OTT and are 5:1 to hit your FD which may or may not be good. The only way you should really call the turn is if you think his hand is face up as Tx and he will call all river bets but not raise or you are willing to bet/call the river.

I mean it sounds ridiculous to ch/f the turn but it isn't a terrible decision.

+1. Got to plan this hand on the turn.

River is a clear bet/fold at the games I play.

if you really wanted to get to showdown you could have considered a check call but getting re-raised on the river at 1/2 is hugely weighted towards the nuts
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:54 PM   #35
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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btw, this is the kind of spot where i try to get villain to show me one. you'd be amazed how often that works. Shows you a diamond call, otherwise fold.
So, serious question on this. What is the general logic on being shown a card?

If they show none, lean more to them having it...and if they show scare cards snap call?

Do you ask in any particular way, or just "will you show me one card?"
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:59 PM   #36
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im folding this to a min raise, this is always quads.

also, basing a 450bb call on chit chat w/a guy u dont know is absurd.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:00 AM   #37
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Just start talking to them and ask, people go to the casino and play poker to be James Bond and hustle so give them the chance to be interesting and James Bond.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:41 AM   #38
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

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Just start talking to them and ask, people go to the casino and play poker to be James Bond and hustle so give them the chance to be interesting and James Bond.
Lol so this just start talking anything will do. Maybe show the Q, if he doesn't show anything maybe show both. People react, people try to hustle, give him a chance
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:42 AM   #39
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

As played I would fold and be happy with it. The whole "I didn't notice the flush", in my experience, is total BS and gives me a lot of information. I'd expect to see 10 7, 44, or 99. If he bluffed you just make a mental note and stack him later in life haha.

I would have check called the river since we check called the turn. This gives him the chance to value town himself with his entire range.
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Old 05-06-2013, 12:49 AM   #40
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Check calling river is pretty clearly terrible and results oriented. Super clear value bet
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Old 05-06-2013, 01:03 AM   #41
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I think the flop bet is too small. 50 into 125 leads to too many multi way turns and does not allow up to ptofitable barrel turn cards.

The turn is a terrible card. We are oop, really deep and we could be drawing dead. I like check/folding here. If you have noticed that your opponent is really peely with second pair on the flop but will fold to resistance on latter streets then I don't mind a double barrel.

I do not mind the river bet. If we bet too much, we need to have info that our opponent will call large bets with relatively weak hands. In live poker and especially 1/2 this is always possible but we do not know this to be the case. I think this bet is more likely to get sigh called whereas a larger bet may get sigh folded.

Once he snap shoves I would fold pretty quickly. Of course sometimes you will find out afterwards that you missed an opportunity to win from a crazy maniac but usually he has a house and the reason he is going all in is because he is confident he is winning.

Once he starts talking and seems calm I would definitely fold.

I reckon you folded here and he showed you a weaker hand but I wouldn't worry too much about this spot.
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Old 05-06-2013, 03:20 AM   #42
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

*grunch*

Purples shouldn't play in a $1/2 game, and if they do they should *clearly* be on top where they are visible.

I'm really not a huge fan of showing my hand here, especially without knowing the house rules stone cold. Some rooms will kill your hand. I'm also not sure it gets us any useful information unless we have some history with the villain. "I didn't know a flush was possible" could be a cunning ruse, depends on the guy and how he says it, which you don't have a read on.

Was this $600 loss the immediate prior hand? If so then it makes me lean a bit more towards calling.

The snap-shove also pushes me towards calling. It doesn't seem like a planned move where he wants you to call and pay him off, the snap shove is an attempt to maximize his FE. But again this is where knowing our villain would help out.

I think there are a lot of naked T's in his range here, but there are also T9, 99, and 44. Don't expect many smaller flushes to jam like this. Overpairs are a possibility.

In general river raises like this at $1/2 are pretty nearly always the nuts. But if this guy sat down with $1900, he's not your typical $1/2 player and he may detect just how uncomfortable you are this deep. And now we're leveling ourselves into a call.

I'm tempted to check the river and just call him if he bets anything less than pot. But that loses a lot of value the times he checks behind. You under-rep your hand and allow a lot of hands that you beat to bet.

I really don't like calling this bet. I think we probably *should* call given the action and the weird "I'm afraid of the T" line that you took in the hand, but I really don't feel good making the call. But that's why I don't play $1500 deep in a $1/2 game.
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:02 AM   #43
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

CLIFFNOTES; I rarely if ever see 300bb shoves on river in 1/2nl in this spot with a lessor flush. Puke fold.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAOxEaglex View Post
Big leak in LLSNL is thinking "___ doesn't make sense"

Of course it doesn't make sense, this is LOLlivepoker.

"Why would he just snap overshove"

"Why would he flat a wet flop"

"Why blah blah blah?"

Just fold.
Dear god this +1,000.

I'm amazed at how easily thinking players level themselves into making bad calls with the "why so much, why would you flat, why would you shove, why would you blah blah blah..."

Bad players are bad because they are bad.

The real question here is, How often at 1/2nl do you see a villain overshove this river for $900???

Do we see it often enough to call with the nut flush?

Incidentally, this is why I'm not a fan of chasing flushes or straights on a paired board and double so when it's top pair that pairs.

Truth be told, I don't even really care all that much about this hand, but rather I'm thinking about all the 1/2nl games i've played over the years and how often this river shove for 300bb is a lessor flush or trips.

I have seen a few mouth breathers over shove with weaker full houses or nut flushes on paired boards like this, and typically these mouth breathers have no problems CALLING shoves... but it is super rare for them to be the one shoving with the lessor hands.

So I just fold, rack up my remaining $500 profit, and call it a day.

BTW, you didn't specify which diamonds were on the board. If we are looking at T 9 4 T 7 then there is a straight flush possibility as well (though unlikely given the turn bet).

Imo, one of the things that should separate us from the masses is making big folds in these spots. I mean, how many LLSNL players are capable of folding here? I'd say less than 10%.

Now, if you had some solid reads on villain and have seen him overbet shoving for 300bb with lessor hands then sure, we can call. But barring that hand history, we should be comfortable puke folding here.

And i'm not a big fan of trying to soul read V here with all the "He bet quickly" tells. I'm not basing a 300bb decision off of that. Sorry, I just ain't.

Anyways, I think you're good in this spot like 1 out of 5 times and that's being generous.

puke fold
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Old 05-06-2013, 06:53 AM   #44
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I think this is a fold. Whether itís good or not is a different thing but in LLSNL people do like to slowplay and in this spot he could very easily have 9x10x, 44 or 99. Given that we (or atleast I) donít see players, especially older ones, betting draws at these limits either then I think we can take a good portion of draws out of his range on the turn. Finally, LLSNL players always pay close attention to flush draws and always fear it when it comes in, whether it makes sense for their opponent to have it or not. The flush came in, you bet big (not in terms of pot size but just for a 1-2 game in general) which indicates clear strength and villain still re raise shoves. Heís 50 years old and playing LLSNL, add this to the line he took and I donít believe heís ever bluffing and we have no reason to think heíd value bet worse.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:24 AM   #45
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Villain doesn't know you. Pretty much all LLSNL people will NOT fold a flush, and sometimes not even a straight here. Given that, how could the villain expect you to fold one? He ALWAYS has a house here. Not raising with a set or 2pair on the flop is far more likely than the villain bluffing the river, and that's what it comes down to. Villain could even have T7s.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:24 AM   #46
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

Villain's hand looks like 10 7 suited (not diamonds obv) to me. He calls preflop in position with a weak hand (questionable but reasonable), then calls on the flop with top pair weak kicker to a cbet (again reasonable), then bets on the turn when he hits trips (a bit small but fine), then boats up on the river. His shove on the river is a good move because he is likely to get called by a flush or smaller boat, and any other hand is going to fold to smaller raises anyway.
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Old 05-06-2013, 08:58 AM   #47
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I'm looking forward to the results on this one....

When you are done, just get up. Playing one more hand and then all this happening is just horrible. Avoid the situation. I have seen it many times and it has happened to me. I have had the dealer deal me in when I say I am done and not even look at the cards. It's like once you say it (either to yourself or out loud), you are setting yourself up for something crazy like this to happen.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:12 AM   #48
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

given his line he can easily have a full house here

i don't think anyone is going to try to bluff an unknown off a flush

i'm prob folding, and pretty quickly too

there is the outside factor villain is just a donk but remember to play for the long run ... if you look up these overbet shoves every time you'll be busted more often than not
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:12 AM   #49
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Re: do I call a 900 dollar raise on the river? 1/2 NL Holywood Casino

I check call the river.

As played i flip a coin and say 'ah **** it' and either gamble or get up and go home. I think it can be a worse hand a big % of the time but the paired board and his insta ship scare me.
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Old 05-06-2013, 09:17 AM   #50
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Are the chips he has on the bottom o his stack in play? Shouldn't they be on top?

As played, I'd fold even though the 1-2 players in Columbus are so terrible.
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