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Old 08-19-2015, 11:22 PM   #26
Illmatikk
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopstick View Post
flop: make it 35 to go. Take it down when he folds.
This is an example of clicking buttons. Is this a bluff or a value bet? "Take it down" seems very irrational in terms of extracting value. Picking up dead money is a valid reason for betting, yes, but it is unlikely V has a hand that will draw out on us.

We're either way ahead or way behind, and raising makes it very easy for V to make the correct play. Don't raise for information.
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Old 08-20-2015, 12:18 AM   #27
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

Fold pre. Bad relative and absolute position. RIO hand. Speaking of RIO, if he uses this line on me with AK the most he will get post flop is $47. Not a tiny amount, but it's not like we are stacking off or anything.

I'm calling the flop, planning to fold to any large turn barrel. This weak cbet is often an underpair. We have a hand that we shouldn't fold for one small bet when we have position.

I'm also calling the turn. If he had bet $30 I'd have folded. Same reason as above. Obviously when we call this it was a little more expensive than we wanted, but I'm willing to pay him his $32 if he really takes such a weak line with AK. If he does have AK he will surely put in a bigger bet on the river and we won't lose another dime.

I'm planning on folding to any river bet larger than $15 (barring a 9 of course). It's very unlikely for him to barrel TT three times, and it's also very rare for him to have a worse ace in his UTG range, much less thin value bet it.

Raising at any point or betting when checked to is a disaster. Absolutely trying to get to SD cheaply as possible, and so far our villain is obliging us.
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Old 08-20-2015, 12:49 AM   #28
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

I fold pretty quickly pre. A typical UTG opening range crushes you, and you're OOP relative to those you want to overcall making it hard to get paid when you hit and hard to know where you stand when you flop a mediocre hand as you did, and there are a lot of players left who could re-raise. Even if UTG hadn't opened folding wouldn't be a terrible idea, IMO.

I don't like folding the flop. IMO it's very likely you have the best hand given villain's bet sizing and you're getting great pot odds, unless you have a read on villain regarding bet sizing. Does villain know about relative bet sizing, or does he realize how small of a bet this is? It looks a lot like a blocker/feeler bet unless villain just doesn't know how to size bets reasonably relative to the pot.

I don't think "not knowing where we are" in the hand is a good enough reason to fold the flop.
Against a tight UTG opening range of TT+,AJs+,KQs,AQo+ we have almost 50% equity assuming he's betting 100% of his range on this flop and getting almost 4:1 on a call, and I think the bet sizing weights villains range towards non Ax holdings.

I also really don't like raising the flop. Raising probably folds out exactly all the hands in villains range that you beat and exactly all the hands that beat you will call. This hand is too strong to raise as a bluff and too weak to raise for value. Raising to win the hand right there or for information is usually a bad idea.

The turn decision is much harder. The size of the bet still bugs me, but does villain really keep firing with KK/KQ etc? I could see either calling or folding, but if you call river is definitely a fold to another bet unless the sizing is really stupid.

Last edited by browni3141; 08-20-2015 at 12:57 AM. Reason: minor edits
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:25 AM   #29
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

I called the $20 turn bet. $94 in the pot. River is another blank. Villain bets $30.
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:36 AM   #30
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
Weird line. At this point I would likely guess villain has a weak ace also but this is a very villain specific situation. There are villains that I fold this too, because they always have 2 pair+ when they keep betting, others that I raise because this line means they don't like their hand. By default, I probably fold at this point. Villain opening in EP and betting again on turn is unlikely to be a worse ace.

In any case, this sort of situation is exactly why this should have been folded preflop. You have a hand where you don't want to catch one pair because you won't have any idea if your ahead or not. That being the case, there are very few good flops.
Agree with this.

BTW, QuadJ: was that you at my table the other night telling me you always win when I make it $7?
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:52 AM   #31
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
I called the $20 turn bet. $94 in the pot. River is another blank. Villain bets $30.

Call. 3 small bets looks like KK trying to squeeze thin value out of Qx. A lot of V's at this level figure you would raise with almost any A. His plan might be bet/fold every street, in which case you won't get any extra value by raising.
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:24 AM   #32
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

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Originally Posted by chopstick View Post
pre: Folding is best. Raising is second best. Calling is worst.

flop: make it 35 to go. Take it down when he folds.
Preflop, calling is much better than raising. I can't even imagine a reason you would consider raising in that spot.

On the flop, raising is also bad.
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Old 08-20-2015, 06:20 AM   #33
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

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Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
I called the $20 turn bet. $94 in the pot. River is another blank. Villain bets $30.
You got this far, you might as well find out what he has been betting this way. I would expect to lose more then win when villain bets river, but he made it cheap enough to find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
BTW, QuadJ: was that you at my table the other night telling me you always win when I make it $7?
Couldn't have been me, I have not played 1/2 this month.
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Old 08-20-2015, 09:16 AM   #34
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

Villain continues to offer you 4:1 on each bet including the river bet. Therefore it's a mistake to fold more that 20% of the time.

Surely A9s is in the top 80% of your range on each street?
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Old 08-20-2015, 11:20 AM   #35
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

I would fold to this river bet.

It takes a really sophisticated villain to make 3 blocker bets with KK.

It's possible, and if I had a read that the villain was good I'd call him down. But in this thread I probably fold to the river bet.

Hoping you called Op, so I can know if I'm wrong or not.
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Old 08-20-2015, 01:01 PM   #36
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

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You got this far, you might as well find out what he has been betting this way. I would expect to lose more then win when villain bets river, but he made it cheap enough to find out.

Couldn't have been me, I have not played 1/2 this month.
I didn't think it was, but he fit your description (except had a full beard) and the dealer called him by your name, which struck me as hugely improbable to be someone else, so I was thinking you'd grown a beard since last time I saw you.

Strange coincidence.
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Old 08-20-2015, 01:22 PM   #37
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

Folding the river after calling the turn here is such an enormous leak.
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Old 08-20-2015, 07:56 PM   #38
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

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Originally Posted by QuadJ View Post
You got this far, you might as well find out what he has been betting this way. I would expect to lose more then win when villain bets river, but he made it cheap enough to find out.
That was my thinking as well. I called.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderstron! View Post
I would fold to this river bet.

It takes a really sophisticated villain to make 3 blocker bets with KK.

It's possible, and if I had a read that the villain was good I'd call him down. But in this thread I probably fold to the river bet.

Hoping you called Op, so I can know if I'm wrong or not.
He showed AK to win the pot.

I couldn't decide if he was:
- just being sneaky and betting small to keep me in the hand
- afraid of being value-owned by AQ or some other 2 pair or set
- just not very good

edit: afterwards I thought that it might have been a good play to raise the flop, as has been discussed in the thread. It would define his hand if he called, and I wouldn't put another chip in the pot.

He took another weird line later in the night.
With both of us sitting on about tree-fitty, he limps for $4 utg. I raise next in to $22 with TT, $1k stack behind me calls.
Folds to villain who looks confused, hems and haws, and then shoves. He makes a little speech about how we don't have equity to call. I don't think it was Hollywooding with AA or KK. If it was, it was worthy of Laurence Olivier.

I think he had a small pair, remote possibility of an ace. I very much doubt he had a big pair. I folded because I didn't want to take a risk of losing my hard won stack on a stupid flip if he had AJ, etc. Why do that when there is easier money to be won from the other players at the table?

Maybe once I grow my bankroll a bit (as well as my balls) I can make hero calls in that sort of situation.
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Old 08-20-2015, 08:20 PM   #39
wj294
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

Quote:
That was my thinking as well. I called.



He showed AK to win the pot.

I couldn't decide if he was:
- just being sneaky and betting small to keep me in the hand
- afraid of being value-owned by AQ or some other 2 pair or set
- just not very good

edit: afterwards I thought that it might have been a good play to raise the flop, as has been discussed in the thread. It would define his hand if he called, and I wouldn't put another chip in the pot.

He took another weird line later in the night.
With both of us sitting on about tree-fitty, he limps for $4 utg. I raise next in to $22 with TT, $1k stack behind me calls.
Folds to villain who looks confused, hems and haws, and then shoves. He makes a little speech about how we don't have equity to call. I don't think it was Hollywooding with AA or KK. If it was, it was worthy of Laurence Olivier.

I think he had a small pair, remote possibility of an ace. I very much doubt he had a big pair. I folded because I didn't want to take a risk of losing my hard won stack on a stupid flip if he had AJ, etc. Why do that when there is easier money to be won from the other players at the table?

Maybe once I grow my bankroll a bit (as well as my balls) I can make hero calls in that sort of situation.
TT is an easy fold there imo, any villain poor enough to have bet sizing that poor in the AK hand never has a balanced l/rr range, without a doubt he has AA/KK here, especially with the Hollywood speech.

In the original hand I fold pre but as playes I call each street, you're getting far too food of a price, especially on the river, to ever fold here. I'm never raising at any point, nothing worse calls /better folds.
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Old 08-22-2015, 06:25 PM   #40
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig4bill View Post
He showed AK to win the pot.

I couldn't decide if he was
[ ] just being sneaky and betting small to keep me in the hand
[ ] afraid of being value-owned by AQ or some other 2 pair or set
[ ] just not very good
[X] pwning the **** out of fish who call, call, call, call with weak aces
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Old 08-22-2015, 07:20 PM   #41
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Re: Dilemma of the mediocre ace

+1 on fold preflop.

About this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chopstick View Post
flop: make it 35 to go. Take it down when he folds.
I think it's generally a mistake to choose strategies that rely on LLSNL players folding. In my experience, they hate doing that.
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