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Old 12-29-2015, 02:19 PM   #1
AA Suited
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Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

1/2, 10player

hj (Hero = 7 9): $300
co: $500 -> Creative LAG

preflop:
utg straddles to $5/mp/hero/co/blinds call/utg checks

flop ($30): 7 9 Q
blinds/utg/mp checks, hero bets $20, co calls, rest fold

I put villain on top pair or a draw (straight/flush).
if he had middle pair w/flush draw or a combo draw, he would have raised me.

turn ($70): 2
Hero bets $40

betting for information to see if he had a flush/flush draw. check/calling any safe river given that he's creative.
but after I bet I thought I should have just checked and let him bluff at it.


What would you have done? Why?
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:27 PM   #2
teddyrowe9
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

betting this turn with the intention to c/c river is a bad plan.

He really doesn't have many Qx hands in his range. KQ and AQ are raising preflop, and if he is honestly a LAG, QT+ might be iso-ing preflop.
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:39 PM   #3
paratrooper99
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

People are going to light this thread on fire because of "betting for information."

The way I see it, you took your "stab" at the flop and got called. We should transition to cheap showdown mode here. I would likely check the turn and check/call the river unless we improve or the board gets even worse.

Last edited by paratrooper99; 12-29-2015 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:42 PM   #4
DeathCabForTootie
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by teddyrowe9 View Post
betting this turn with the intention to c/c river is a bad plan.

He really doesn't have many Qx hands in his range. KQ and AQ are raising preflop, and if he is honestly a LAG, QT+ might be iso-ing preflop.
Agreed.

Don't really like the bet OTT. If he's limping behind stuff like Qx suited, he's probably folding to a turn bet. I check/evaluate turn.

If we bet turn and check river, he can bomb it because he knows we don't have a flush but his range is full of flushes.
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:43 PM   #5
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

I like a bet here. The value is thin but it exists. You can get calls from pair+draws, naked draws, etc.

Here's why c/c is bad: when you check he either checks or bets. When he checks he is realizing his equity against you for free, and every hand he has should have almost 20% equity. So you either let him catch up or make no money when you could have. When he bets he is either bluffing or value betting. You likely won't know which. His bluff hands have significant equity against you and there are very few safe river cards. So if you check call the turn you are either hoping he gives up on the river with his bluffs (generally won't happen) or you are prepared to call the river almost regardless of what comes. Neither is a good play.

Bet turn. Evaluate on river but probably c/c is best.
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:43 PM   #6
DeathCabForTootie
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paratrooper99 View Post
People are going to light this thread on fire because of "betting for information."

The way I see it, you took your "stab" at the flop and got called. We should transition to cheap showdown mode here. I would likely check/fold the rest of the way down unless we improve.
It's not really a stab, we've got bottom two. We (should be) betting for value.
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:45 PM   #7
whatisthis3
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

There's a few things I probably would have done differently. Also a few questions.

Questions:
1) What is your table image?
2) What makes CO a creative LAG? If competent at reading hands, it would make me want to avoid pots with such a player. Given the situation, do you think V is capable of making float plays?

Different:
***1) Don't call with 79s in HJ Pre with 150BB deep. Just fold or raise to steal the button. Esp given the fact that this tough LAG player will at least limp ATC in CO in a multilimped pot.

This is so important, because now you have absolutely no idea what range to put a LAG V on, and you're playing OOP. It's a ****ty situation, even though you flopped bottom 2.
2) If you think CO or Button has a high percentage chance of betting here, I'd actually check it and play with relative position. If my image contains bluffs(in this case, steal pot bluffs) in my arsenal, I'd be more willing to bet. $30 would be good, since it's multiway.
3) As played, betting the turn is fine. $40 barely prices V out of the draw, so I might bet a bit more. You're still betting for value here. Information is a side effect.

If V raises, depending on the amount and tendency of this "creative" V to bluff, I'd be fairly willing to still call the turn raise and check non 7 or 9 rivers and act accordingly. V's range is polarized to a flush or air.
If V calls, I'd just value bet V on the river on a non club, since he might have chased with a draw or called with Qx

Last edited by whatisthis3; 12-29-2015 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:52 PM   #8
paratrooper99
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie View Post
It's not really a stab, we've got bottom two. We (should be) betting for value.
Just realized it was 2 pair and not just bottom pair. I edited it. Thanks
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Old 12-29-2015, 02:54 PM   #9
Jamitontheriver
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

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Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie View Post
Agreed.

Don't really like the bet OTT. If he's limping behind stuff like Qx suited, he's probably folding to a turn bet. I check/evaluate turn.

If we bet turn and check river, he can bomb it because he knows we don't have a flush but his range is full of flushes.
I'm fine with him folding QX on the turn. He has 8 outs with that hand, including bluff outs on a club river.

I agree that the river is a good bluff spot for him, but I rarely see these river bluffs. People are far more likely to make a move on the turn when they still have outs and your range is super wide rather than turn top pair into a bluff on the river when checked to.
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Old 12-29-2015, 03:09 PM   #10
Nice_Guy_Eddie
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AA Suited View Post
turn ($70): 2
Hero bets $40

betting for information to see if he had a flush/flush draw. check/calling any safe river given that he's creative.
but after I bet I thought I should have just checked and let him bluff at it.


What would you have done? Why?
You should bet the turn primarily to get value from Qx and straight and club draws. Information is a byproduct of your value bet.

The board is too wet. A check risks letting him beat you with one club or one of the many straight combos for free. It also doesn't let you get value from worse (like Qx) who may call, but not bet the turn or river. He can still bluff or semibluff by raising your bet.

I'd usually fold pre. I would not call the straddle with 97s in the HJ with a 'creative lag' behind me. I'd mix in the occasion raise and almost never limp.
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Old 12-29-2015, 05:29 PM   #11
Illmatikk
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

You claim V is a creative LAG, but he overlimped pre flop and flatted OTF. Seems unlikely this is the case, he or she may just be loose and capable of bluffing; there's a big difference. Besides, if V is actually a creative LAG, then you should assume they have hands that will call a turn bet that you beat, like plenty of Qx and pocket pair+FD hands. Seems like a clear bet/call if he's as creative and loose aggro as you say. If he's just loose and doesn't raise often, it's a b/f
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Old 12-29-2015, 05:42 PM   #12
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeathCabForTootie View Post
If we bet turn and check river, he can bomb it because he knows we don't have a flush but his range is full of flushes.
Why can't we have a flush and be checking to induce?
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Old 12-29-2015, 05:50 PM   #13
DeathCabForTootie
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Re: Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suess View Post
Why can't we have a flush and be checking to induce?
That's valid. Does villain know we will bluff-catch river? I don't know, there's literally zero reads other than "creative LAG" whatever that means. There are a lot of players who prey on capped ranges and bomb the hell out of scare cards or when checked to on the river.
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Old 12-30-2015, 02:45 AM   #14
patjps
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Did I turn my 2pair into a bluff?

Not enough info on V, but I would ISO or fold Pre with LAG player behind us. AP bet/fold OTT. I think he has a ton of Qx hands that we can get value from, excluding AQ/KQ. We can also assume tha AQ/KQ are not in our perceived range as we limped behind which makes it more likely that we could have a flush and Its a difficult spot to raise for V
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