Hero - Just got dirtied about 2 orbits ago so a little frustrated. I had 88 in BB and called a CO open of $15

38J
I check call his $20
6
I lead $55
call
K
I lead $110
He goes $375

I tank call - he had A3 - I felt it was really hard to fold this vs an unknown, but in hindsight I should of.

Villain $1000 - He is drinking a beer and seems to be decent. Apparently beats the 1/2 games for a good amount and is taking a shot at 2/5

Hero is dealt AJ UTG+1 and decides to go $20. I fold here sometimes but I like my chances

Villain on BTN goes $55
I call

443

Check / call $50

Q

Check Check

Q

Check / call $125

Thoughts?

Meh.
I'm not sure about calling this river.
You're chopping with A high, and losing to any pocket pair and and back door Qx. I don't think he's bluffing here enough to make it a profitable call.

Fold to the 3!.

Hand 1: You need to be able to fold to the river 3 bet. Probably not every time but a good portion of the time. It's the rare villain that can be bluffing once the flush comes in. Even small flushes likely flat because they fear you have a higher flush.

Hand 2: Give up to the 3 bet preflop. If he has been so aggressive that AJo looks good against his range then don't open it in the first place. Fold flop or lead turn, if you are going to float the flop then bet the queen. Give up on river, you are chopping or losing to everything except 22.

This, not close. Although you're getting a decent price, his 3bet range in this spot is going to be tight and there are basically no flops where you couldn't easily be in trouble.

AP, fold the river. What on earth are you putting him on? If he had an ace he'd probably just show it down and anyway, you're calling to chop there. If he has any pair you're beaten. His threebet range probably consists entirely of aces and pairs so...

Fold to the 3! preflop... you said yourself you are 50/50 on even opening this hand from UTG1... so why flat a 3! with it?

Heck 4-betting light is a better option pre IMO if you have this hand on the edge of your opening range anyway might as well balance with a 4-bet once and a while rather than end up here where you are murdered by pairs and any hand with an ace definitely out kicks you or has a freaking queen for a monster.

First hand is okay. I probably check call the river but I'm checking to induce a bet. I expect villain to have KJ or 9T more than a flush.

2nd hand is an easy fold to the 3-bet preflop.

4! or fold preflop. I'd lean fold since you opened UTG+1 and there was no money to squeeze. If I thought he was 3! light then I like 4! but he's probably not that light considering he is shot taking bigger and most 1/2 players haven't learned to 3! light.

Folding to the 3bet is ****ing LOL. You guys are total nits and will get run over in any decent game. I probably should be posting in a different thread like mid stakes full ring.... sorry guys he 3bet me on the BTN with like a 15% 3bet range, let's just fold pre so we have no tough decisions post flop. ****ing unreal. Apparently it's an EZ fold. I would love to have you in my game. I just 3bet every open you make and you only call me with nutted pre flop hands while I print money every other hand you open. Maybe a better answer is don't open AJo at all if you are going to fold to a 3bet.

4betting is probably a good start and a MUCH better over all strategy but we are probably too deep to do that with AJo imo. I think I kinda like it though and it will put him in a tough spot if he doesn't have KK or AA which he doesn't have here all that often.

No, LOL is not telling us that villain is 3-betting much more often than the average player.
15% would look something like this:

{22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,ATo+,KJ o+}

A much more typical range would be:

{JJ+, AJs+, AQo+} (That's probably a little wider than average too.)

Against the first range,overall, you are about even money. Folding is weak. 4-betting just folds out the part of his range you want to play against, gets 5-bet by the very top, and called but the part that is not good enough to 5-bet but still has an advantage over AJ. Calling and playing after the flop is probably best.

Against the second you are worse than a 2-1 underdog. Folding is best. What are we comfortable hitting on the flop against that range?

Against what my equity calculator calls an average 3-bet range (Presumably researched by someone that has seen more hands than either of us.) {JJ+,AK} you would be a 3-1 underdog and folding is even more right.

So again, where did you indicate that villain was 3-betting much wider than average? Do you just enjoy not giving everyone the correct information and then insulting them?

Players taking a shot at higher stakes normally don’t have a BTN 15% 3-bet range vs. an EP open. Rather they play tighter.

Regardless, AJo is close to even vs that range. However, you are oop vs a seemingly competent player. While hand mathematically has decent equity vs. his range, position disadvantage makes this a fold, imho.

If the opponent plays BTN aggressively, perhaps a L/C (or L/3B) is optimal since his raising range will be wider yet.

lol.

djevans I mean for starters you are just miles wrong theoretically. The GTO solution for AJo UTG vs a 3! at full ring is going to be something like fold the majority of the time, 4bet sometimes, call very little. And 3betting 15% vs an utg raise is completely ludicrous, like double or triple the actual optimal amount. I suspect the reason for both of these errors is that your UTG raising range is miles too wide. What's the worst hand you routinely raise UTG?

The other thing is that even if you were right about that stuff, the question isn't what would we do vs you lagging it up a storm and bullying us, or what we would do vs someone who 3bet 15%. It was what would we do vs some guy who beats 1/2 and is taking a shot at higher stakes. On that description I expect his threebetting range here to be TT+, AQ+ at the very loosest.

Answering thread title and referring to both hands...yes.

Being that you said you sometimes fold AJo UTG instead of opening, are you saying you call/raise with your entire range against a button 3 bet?

Because that sounds kind of silly against a player who (lol) is 3 betting wider than you are open.

You want to encourage that by folding your worst opening hands, and punishing him with your best. If you send the table the message you are never folding to a 3 bet, you are going to get value 3 bet into the ground, and are not going to get 3 bets into you when you have premiums. Does that sound good?

If you must fight him, you do it with a 4 bet. To profit with AJo you will have to bluff a lot anyway, why not now while the pot is small?

To me, you never ever call this pre. Usually fold, sometimes 4 bet.

I mean, really, what is the game plan with a call here? Even against a 15% 3 bet range, how are you going to make money with this hand post flop?

djevans, What kind of hands in that 15% range are you putting V on? You only have 47.9% equity [tie 8.6% of that] vs.:
A9s+; AJo+; K9s+; KQo; Q9s+; J9s+; TT+ [more pairs lowers your equity] & 65s+ [10.4% range]. You think it is more like 15%? If you add all pairs, that's 14.3%. If he's going to play other speculative hands, i.e., 86s etc., wouldn't he play all pairs 1st?

If that's V's range & you call, how do you handle his barrelling? Fold on the 2nd or 3rd barrel unimproved?

Flops you have 55%++ equity with: J33, JT5, J43, etc. The bulk of the time [using random flops on Flopzilla] you have 70%+ equity when you're ahead. So he's either folding, or has that Golden Hand that crushes you, no? The majority of the time, you're way behind after the flop using my 10.4% range.

Disclaimer: I hate playing OOP with a passion, so I never open/raise to $20 with AJo & 8 players behind me. So I have no experience at it.

Looking forward to reading how the winners in the forum score +Ev in EP with AJo

I just think if you open fold AJ they can 3bet you with anything and win. The actual hand that 3bet me was a weak holding so I don't really like folding it pre to that. I think there has to be a better strategy than to just fold pre with AJo vs the hands this guy is 3betting with.


Maybe fold river since we don't beat much, but it was kind of annoying how the board ran out.

At the time though, you had little indication that this player was capable of making plays which made open-folding AJo a very reasonable exploit no?

And even if you firmly believe in your PF rant above, you are open-calling pre because you are going to do anything other than make leveling check-call downs post against a player like this.

I think you are overly obsessing about what the actual hands were. You didn't know he had Q8. He didn't know you were just AJ.

You can fold the AJ because his 3 bet is double the pot. Folding this one hand doesn't mean you will fold any hand you open UTG. And if he thinks it does he will pay off your better hands.

And just as important,you have a hand that is behind many of his bluffs on the flop. So it is probably better to be aggressive.

And that extends to pre-flop when you don't fold. You don't want to show this hand down. Fold or play back at him.

depending on your stack size, never calling pre like ever. In this case I would 4bet pre as he's drinking a beer, sittin in a bigger game, if he really beats 1/2 for a good amount, he's close to that 15%. put some pressure on his semi-wide button raise.

As played, c/r/f (if I ever flatted there it's not to call him down post flop with ace high)

OTF was a good spot to cbet, as you block the nutflush and can get a lot of folds here. If you call the flop, it is a good spot to float, but you didn't do that either.

Villain checking back and betting river indicates to me either a bluff or some sort of pocket pair. A $125 bet is roughly half the pot? I don't have an issue with a river call nearly as much with the actions on the flop and turn. You are chopping a good amount of the time, so I don't mind calling here. Overall I think this was way too loose-passive.

EDIT: Read through the thread and found V had Q8. That is certainly wider than I expected him to 3b, but you still can take this down with a cbet. I agree with the field here that fold/4b pre is better than a flat. AP, I still don't mind calling the river since no draw got there and we only lose to a Q. With the benefit of hindsight, the smallish river bet was praying to get value out of what villain expected to be a fold.

I for one would like to play in a game where I can bomb rivers and get paid, then have easily dominated hands call a 3! OOP and take no aggression so I can get fat value on the river. Do I have to bring my own cape to the Hero's Ball?

The takeaway from this thread is the forum needs to know "drinking a beer" means 3! light every single time.

I can't Cbet if i'm not the aggressor. You mean donk lead? I did float the flop

Check raise flop?