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Old 02-13-2019, 10:31 PM   #1
TERMlNATOR
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Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

Hi, I am not too good at pot odds when facing over-bets. But here's the hand in this $1/3 NL cash game. Effective stacks: $354.

UTG (TAG) raises to $12, I'm on button with QQ and just call (he folds a lot to 3 bets and I wanted to keep him in). BB also calls.

Flop: 8c-9c-Qh

UTG checks to me, I bet $25, BB calls, UTG goes all-in for $317!

This is totally out of character for this player, he never makes these kinds of large bets. I tank and decide to CALL. He could have a lower set, or possibly a made straight, which I have outs to beat. BB folds.

Did I have the odds to call? He turns over TJ, for a straight. I got lucky when a J hit the turn and a T hit the river, for a split pot.

After the hand, he said he made a mistake. He thought he only had $100 behind, and forgot he had 2 black chips under his stack. He did not mean to raise to $300.

Thanks for your feedback, guys!
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:07 PM   #2
twitcherroo
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

I folded nearly this exact hand except it was a rainbow. 75yo man showed me JT and 'didn't want me to draw out on him'. I had $17 invested when he shoved for ~$300. Easy fold against super nits. Easy call against the rest of the free world.

Think of it this way, you have QQ. What possible hand is he shoving with?
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:11 PM   #3
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

This is a snap call. Don't be ridiculous.
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Old 02-13-2019, 11:17 PM   #4
twitcherroo
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by persianpunisher View Post
This is a snap call. Don't be ridiculous.
It's not at all ridiculous. When a guy 7x PSB shoves a flop and isn't a maniac, he has the nuts and (spoiler) you don't have the odds to draw to a boat.
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:09 AM   #5
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

We have to call $292 to win $696. -> 292/(37+50+317+292) -> 42% equity needed to call.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
21,780 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 89Q
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QdQs50.97% 10,981240
88,99,JT49.03% 10,559240
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Old 02-14-2019, 12:13 AM   #6
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

^and that doesn't account for removing the JTo combos. Technically villain should only have 4 JT suited combos.

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
9,900 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 89Q
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QdQs70.31% 6,895132
88,99,JxTx29.69% 2,873132
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:43 AM   #7
cwel87
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

The real mistake in this hand was not 3!ing pre.

Calling the shove is fine, if unspectacular. Given villain’s explanation, the shove makes a lot more sense from their perspective, but from our vantage point, the ol’ 7x into our top set feels some kind of way.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:45 AM   #8
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
I folded nearly this exact hand except it was a rainbow. 75yo man showed me JT and 'didn't want me to draw out on him'. I had $17 invested when he shoved for ~$300. Easy fold against super nits. Easy call against the rest of the free world.

Think of it this way, you have QQ. What possible hand is he shoving with?
I bet your hand wasnt the exact same situation. No way your 75 year old super nit raised UTG with JT.

Your guy calling a raise from whatever position he was in is totally different than an UTG player being the raiser in the hand.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:59 AM   #9
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

Snap call
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:17 AM   #10
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

forget the flop , 3B pre-flop , too often people zoom past pre-flop and want to know what to do on the flop... pre-flop is very important , i think we could put some big combo draws like 6c7c in his range as well making the call on the flop even easier


twitcheroo had a good point, if it's an uber nit then you could maybe consider folding but generally folding is really bad
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:24 AM   #11
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I bet your hand wasnt the exact same situation. No way your 75 year old super nit raised UTG with JT.

Your guy calling a raise from whatever position he was in is totally different than an UTG player being the raiser in the hand.
Nothing is exactly the same so, yes, fair point.

H limps UTG w/QQ, 8 people to the flop (was planning l/rr). Flop 89Qr, H makes it $16 (full PSB). Ancient rock OTB shoves for ~$300, H laughs out loud folds set face up. V shows Proudly shows JT and declares he didnít want H to draw out on him. I didnít think through the OP that closely. My point is when a non maniac makes a sizeable 7x PSB shove itís the nuts. Not the 2nd nuts, the nuts.
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Old 02-14-2019, 11:25 AM   #12
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

Also agree that flatting QQ OTB is not good.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:06 PM   #13
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

Never fold sets ever and your winrate will be just fine.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:16 PM   #14
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by twitcherroo View Post
Also agree that flatting QQ OTB is not good.


Itís gto
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:20 PM   #15
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by TERMlNATOR View Post
UTG (TAG) raises to $12, I'm on button with QQ and just call (he folds a lot to 3 bets and I wanted to keep him in). BB also calls.
As many have pointed out, you're making the wrong adjustment by flatting pre. Instead of smooth calling more with monsters to keep your opponents in you should be 3 betting more and taking those uncontested small pots until they start calling. The big pots will come eventually, don't twist yourself into a pretzel trying to hit a home run every time you have QQ+.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:29 PM   #16
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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As many have pointed out, you're making the wrong adjustment by flatting pre. Instead of smooth calling more with monsters to keep your opponents in you should be 3 betting more and taking those uncontested small pots until they start calling. The big pots will come eventually, don't twist yourself into a pretzel trying to hit a home run every time you have QQ+.


Yeah but 3betting wider doesnít entail 3betting wider for value.
Like if weíre only gonna get action from QQ+/AK when we 3bet then 3betting QQ is actually bad. What we can do is still only 3bet KK AA for values, but also add BLUFF 3BETS! ie 3bet with like A5s or possible K4s
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:39 PM   #17
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post
Yeah but 3betting wider doesnít entail 3betting wider for value.
Like if weíre only gonna get action from QQ+/AK when we 3bet then 3betting QQ is actually bad. What we can do is still only 3bet KK AA for values, but also add BLUFF 3BETS! ie 3bet with like A5s or possible K4s
I was speaking more in general rather than what to do with each particular hand in your 3 bet range in each situation. Obviously you can have some flats OTB with QQ but at a table that sounds weak I wouldn't worry about AK 4 betting us so why wouldn't we want to 3! in position against AK and be able to play a larger pot perfectly in position? I'm more interested in exploiting than GTO at this weak 1/3 table. If we happen to run into AA, KK, it will probably be fairly face up and we will tend to lose less by 3 betting pre IMO.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:55 PM   #18
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post
Yeah but 3betting wider doesnít entail 3betting wider for value.
Like if weíre only gonna get action from QQ+/AK when we 3bet then 3betting QQ is actually bad. What we can do is still only 3bet KK AA for values, but also add BLUFF 3BETS! ie 3bet with like A5s or possible K4s
^This +1.

3 betting wider as bluffs when you can easily fold to a four-bet or flop aggression is ideal. If you will only get action from better when you 3-bet with JJ/QQ then it's pretty much a disaster. You want to keep hands in that you dominate and let them make mistakes post-flop - especially in a scenario like this when you are going to be against one or maybe two Vs. If there is a big potential to b multi-way then you definitely need to 3-bet all JJ+.
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:32 PM   #19
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post
Itís gto
If you're playing Rock paper scissor and your opponent randomizes their decision, then you must randomize as well bc you can't exploit them


If they throw Rock every time, then you can simply throw paper every time
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Old 02-14-2019, 03:48 PM   #20
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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If you're playing Rock paper scissor and your opponent randomizes their decision, then you must randomize as well bc you can't exploit them




This isnít even true lol
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:02 PM   #21
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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This isnít even true lol
I'm saying that a balanced strategy should be used against players that are also playing a balanced strategy and vice versa
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:28 PM   #22
twitcherroo
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by hyperknit View Post
Itís gto
Fortunately for me I donít know what GTO means. I simply play for money.
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:51 PM   #23
TERMlNATOR
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

Thanks for all your replies guys! This was helpful. I guess if I 3-bet, I would not have been in this tough position on the flop. But in the future, I will tend to not fold trips as a general rule. Thanks!
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Old 02-15-2019, 08:32 AM   #24
MikeStarr
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by TERMlNATOR View Post
Thanks for all your replies guys! This was helpful. I guess if I 3-bet, I would not have been in this tough position on the flop. But in the future, I will tend to not fold trips as a general rule. Thanks!
This is not a tough position on the flop. Not in the slightest.

You got coolered. It happens.
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Old 02-15-2019, 09:53 AM   #25
twitcherroo
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Re: Did I make a mistake by calling with top set?

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Originally Posted by TERMlNATOR View Post
Thanks for all your replies guys! This was helpful. I guess if I 3-bet, I would not have been in this tough position on the flop. But in the future, I will tend to not fold trips as a general rule. Thanks!
Someone said it above, iíve Said it many times - if you never folded a flopped set in your career it wouldnít be a mistake overall.
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